Product Genius, the Podcast for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and Startups
Honest advice for inventors—with obscure cultural references included at no extra charge.
Episode
256
Why Noah Does NOT Want You to Spend Money with Him
Why would a for-profit product-development firm tell a prospective client not to spend money? In this episode, Steven and Noah examine the situations in which beginning engineering work would create motion without a realistic path to market—and why an honest “not yet” can be more valuable than an enthusiastic proposal. Noah explains the filters he uses before accepting an inventor project. Is there a real customer problem and a market large enough to support a business? Is the inventor open to building the best product, or determined to reproduce a narrow patent regardless of better alternatives? Can the available resources fund more than an incomplete first step? Is the founder truthful, collaborative, and willing to do the business work that engineering cannot solve? The conversation covers patent worship, unrealistic equity-for-services offers, misleading résumés and advisory boards, underfunded projects, cheap CAD that cannot be manufactured, and inventors motivated more by the identity of “being an inventor” than by serving a customer. Noah also describes a constructive alternative to rejection: identify the blocking business question, assign focused homework, and use fail-fast experiments to reach a no-go decision early and cheaply. It is a practical guide to knowing when to develop an invention, when to pause, and what must be resolved before writing the next check.
Core Topics for this episode:
- Inventor Strategy
- Invention Process
Key Takeaways Include:
Listen here:
Episode Blog
Why a Good Product Developer May Tell You Not to Spend Money
Hiring engineers can make an invention feel real. Drawings appear, prototypes take shape, and invoices create the reassuring sense that the project is moving. But technical progress is not the same as business progress.
If the market is unclear, the economics are impossible, or the founder cannot finance the path beyond the first deliverable, beginning development may simply convert savings into unfinished work. An ethical product-development partner should be willing to say “not yet”—even when saying yes would generate revenue.
A Cool Idea Is Not Automatically a Business
Some concepts are clever, amusing, or personally useful without supporting a commercial market. The first questions are basic:
- Who experiences the problem?
- How often does it occur?
- What do people use today?
- Why would they switch?
- What value does the solution create?
- How many plausible customers exist?
If the inventor made something for fun in the garage, developing one for personal use may be a satisfying hobby. Building a company requires evidence that enough other people care.
The most productive next step may be customer interviews, competitive research, or a simple market test—not CAD or engineering.
Solve the Right Problem, Not Merely the Patented Version
A patent can become a psychological anchor. After spending thousands of dollars, an inventor may insist that the commercial product exactly match the claims and drawings. But the patent may protect only one narrow implementation while leaving simpler, cheaper, or more effective solutions open to competitors.
Noah’s fictional example is a three-legged stool. Imagine patenting that stool and then refusing a fourth leg or a back because those features are not in the patent. The inventor preserves fidelity to the document while competitors build better seating.
Patents should support product and business strategy. They should not prevent the team from designing the right product. When engineering reveals a superior approach, revisit the intellectual-property strategy with qualified counsel instead of forcing the market offering into an obsolete concept.
Make Sure the Budget Reaches a Useful Milestone
Development fees are rarely the largest costs in launching a physical product. Tooling, testing, certification, inventory, packaging, freight, marketing, distribution, insurance, and working capital may dwarf early design expenses.
If an initial engineering estimate exhausts the inventor’s resources, completing that phase may leave the project stranded. A responsible plan asks what the available capital can accomplish and how that accomplishment unlocks the next resource.
Sometimes the right goal is not full engineering. It may be a focused proof of concept, an appearance model, customer evidence, a preliminary cost model, or materials that support fundraising. Spend to reach a decision or unlock the next stage—not merely to possess more files.
Cheap CAD Can Be Expensive
A low-cost freelancer may create an attractive 3D model without understanding manufacturing, tolerances, materials, assembly, tooling, or real components. The inventor believes the product is designed, but a manufacturer cannot build it.
The problem is not the platform or price by itself. It is confusing illustration with production engineering. Before purchasing CAD, define its purpose and required output. Concept visualization, patent figures, 3D printing, injection molding, sheet-metal fabrication, and production documentation require different levels of rigor.
A Strong Working Relationship Requires Honesty
Product development is collaborative and often lasts months or years. Trust matters. Inventors do not need a fabricated board, exaggerated résumé, or entourage to appear credible. Pretending to be further along raises a larger concern: what else will be misrepresented when costs, schedules, tests, or investor conversations become difficult?
The reverse is also true. Developers should be direct about capability, availability, assumptions, and uncertainty. Both sides should be able to discuss bad news without performance or posturing.
Your Idea Is Not Payment
Some inventors ask service providers to work for free or at a deep discount in exchange for equity. Equity arrangements can make sense in carefully selected ventures, but an unvalidated napkin sketch does not automatically equal the value of months of professional labor.
Even a genuinely excellent product needs marketing, operations, capital, leadership, distribution, and execution beyond the engineer’s control. A developer cannot responsibly value equity based only on the idea.
If the founder cannot pay for necessary work, the immediate task is to validate, simplify, recruit partners, or raise capital—not assume that every professional should finance the venture through unpaid labor.
Wanting to Be an Inventor Is Not a Customer Problem
The identity of being an inventor can be exciting. But searching random industries for something to invent often produces solutions disconnected from real users. Domain experience is not mandatory, yet the founder must become deeply knowledgeable about the customer and context.
A better starting point is a problem encountered repeatedly, a process understood well, or a community the founder genuinely wants to serve. Passion for recognition fades. Commitment to a meaningful problem is more durable.
Turn “No” Into Homework
A constructive no should identify what blocks the project. Examples include:
- Validate that customers will pay the required price
- Determine whether the market extends beyond one unusual use case
- Rework the business model before engineering
- Resolve ownership or partnership conflicts
- Establish a funding plan for tooling and launch
- Test the riskiest mechanism with a low-cost proof of concept
- Review whether the existing patent supports the intended business
Some inventors return months or years later after solving those problems. At that point, the same project that was irresponsible to begin may become a strong opportunity.
Fail Fast Protects Capital
Even well-screened projects can fail. The objective is not to guarantee success; it is to attack the most dangerous uncertainties early. If a no-go point exists, reach it in three weeks rather than after tooling and inventory.
Early failure is useful when it is focused, inexpensive, and tied to a decision. That approach preserves money, time, relationships, and confidence for a stronger path.
Product Genius Take
Do not spend on product development merely because someone is willing to accept the project. First establish a plausible customer, market, product strategy, working relationship, and funding path. Use each expenditure to reduce a specific risk or reach a meaningful milestone. A developer who tells you to pause may be providing the most valuable service of the entire journey.
Or, read the full transcript here:
Steven Julian
Noah will do anything for inventors, but it won't do that. Shout out Meatloaf. And if you want to know what that is, you'll have to listen next to Product Genius. Do you want to be a successful inventor entrepreneur? Struggling to get your product from idea to market? Well, you've come to the right place. Welcome to Product Genius, the down-to-earth podcast that explores important topics about inventing and launching new products. Noah McNeely is your trusted guide. With more than 20 years of product launch experience, he's here to help you on your journey to become a product genius.
Let's get started. Here's your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian. Hey, that's my line. Yes, it's your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian. Welcome to another wonderful edition of Product Genius. Noah McNeely is sitting across the table from me. That's a down draft of the music there, Jody. That was a good job. Noah, we need to talk about something.
Noah McNeely
I'm sure we do.
Steven Julian
Yeah.
Noah McNeely
We need to talk about a few things.
Steven Julian
Oh, there are a lot of things, but there's one specific thing. As the slightly annoying co-host of the show, I start the show off so. I get to choose. I'm choosing. You can choose to shut me down if you want. But we're repeating a topic in a way, but we're going to repeat it without really saying the exact same things over and over again. Correct?
Noah McNeely
I didn't realize we were repeating anything. Oh. Yeah, but maybe.
Steven Julian
You said that to me. You said we've talked about this before.
Noah McNeely
Did I? Yeah, I think you did. I forget more than I remember these days.
Steven Julian
Well, we've done this show for a while, and I think we've kept it fresh, we've kept it entertaining, and there are certain topics that we circle around. Is that fair?
Noah McNeely
True, and I've gotten older and grumpier, so this will probably be a very different take. As have I.
Steven Julian
We are staunchly in the get-off-my-lawn phase of our lives.
Noah McNeely
I think that as you have children, you lose your patience until one day you have grandchildren, then it all comes back.
Steven Julian
Ooh.
Noah McNeely
That's another show. Wow.
Steven Julian
Okay. Table that. Jody, make a note. We're going to, yeah, producer Jody. You get to do some producing. All right. And I was going to make a comment about the opening of. the show because I was just listening to it and I was like, maybe we need something fresh. We need something new. We need something peppy. So now I've turned it into a complaining session. So I'm not going to do that. All right. We are going to talk about people who work with you. And we are going to, you brought this topic as we tend to do in the pre-show.
Hey, what do you guys want to talk about? What are we thinking about? By the way, that's a great wrestling gimmick. So what do you want to talk about? And we're going to talk about the most counterintuitive part of what you do. What is that?
Noah McNeely
Well, according to my notes, what it is, is I very often tell people not to spend any money with me or anyone else, which...
Steven Julian
That is counterintuitive.
Noah McNeely
Why would I do that if I'm running a business?
Steven Julian
That is not profitable. And you are not a nonprofit. You are a for-profit business.
Noah McNeely
How many times do you walk into Walmart and somebody stops you in the door and says, don't spend any money here.
Steven Julian
Excuse me, you need to leave. because this is not for.
Noah McNeely
I would say only one in 10 times. Yeah.
Steven Julian
And then you found out that it was just some crazy person at the front of the store.
Noah McNeely
Not a guy that works there. Yeah, right.
Steven Julian
Exactly. So, yeah, you sometimes tell people who come to you, it's not like you just find random strangers, hey, don't spend money with me. These are people who have come to you and said, I got this great idea or I want you to help me with my product.
Noah McNeely
By the time I'm 75, I might be doing that on the street, just randomly grabbing people and saying, don't spend any money with me today.
Steven Julian
So do you do this because you don't like people?
Noah McNeely
Absolutely. I don't like some people. No, that's not.
Steven Julian
And some people that you don't like, you do shows with. I'm just kidding. Just kidding.
Noah McNeely
No, you're one of my favorite people. Both of you are.
Steven Julian
Oh, my mom used to say, Steven, you're my favorite youngest son.
Noah McNeely
Were you actually the youngest?
Steven Julian
Exactly. Exactly.
Noah McNeely
No, I like people just fine. A lot of people I like, but that's not the reason why I. tell people this.
Steven Julian
So the reality, so some people would go, well, that's because you're just, you know. You're so far along in your journey and your career that you just, you know, you get to be very, very selective. Is it just because you're like, well, if I can't have them, I don't want anybody else to have them. So I'm just turning people away because I'm too busy.
Noah McNeely
No. In fact, I would say it's more because I do like people. And that's not even quite right. It's because I don't like to see people make horrible, horrible mistakes. And, you know, when I was younger, Just starting in engineering 25 years or so ago, the goal or the attitude was just take on every project because it'll be fun. We'll figure out a way to do it. It's going to be great. Right.
Steven Julian
Because you can do anything.
Noah McNeely
Absolutely. Then as you become more mature and you learn through mistakes that, oh, okay, maybe we shouldn't have taken that project on or whatever, and for a lot of reasons. So these days, I am at a point in my career where I don't need to do that. I've got plenty to do. I don't need to talk someone into doing a project with me just to do a project.
Steven Julian
So if you're saying yes to somebody, so if you're saying, if someone comes to you and you're choosing to work with them, you go, yep, I'm going to take on your project. What are the top two or three reasons why you, Noah, of Product Quickstart are going to start working with somebody?
Noah McNeely
You're turning it upside down. You're not going to why I say no, but the why I say yes.
Steven Julian
I'll get to why you say no. I just want to bring an air of positivity at the start of this show. Let me be the host.
Noah McNeely
Be the host, by all means. I'll ask you why you said yes to do this show at some point. There are a few things. One, is it someone I can work with? You know, we're going to have a good relationship, working relationship, or is it someone that I just see all sorts of just interpersonal problems right away? And, you know, sometimes you see that. Sometimes they hide it pretty well and you don't see it. until six months later. But, you know, you try to avoid those. But really, a lot of times it's I see a possible, at least a possible pathway for them to get to where they're trying to go.
Now, does that mean I'm right all the time? Absolutely not. Sometimes that pathway doesn't pan out. But at least on day one, I don't see, okay, there's no way this is going to make it.
Steven Julian
You're not just looking for projects. You're looking for, first of all, you're looking for a relationship. You kind of said, you know, it's somebody you want to work with, but you're really looking, you're trying to look ahead and see, do I see a success?
Noah McNeely
Well, yeah. And at this point in my career, I'm looking for stories I can tell, success stories, people that we can have on this show to talk about those success stories. But also, you know, those success stories, and I'll say what success means in a couple of different ways, but those success stories help me become better, of course. But they're also stories I can tell other people, whether they work with me or not. Fred did this. and it worked out and this is what he did. And it's more positive things I can talk about, stuff I can put in my portfolio.
It's more and more reasons for people to want to work with me because I am success-oriented.
Steven Julian
So your dreams of writing the great American novel never came true. So you can write your success. You can write, instead of a novel, you can write a... Business story with someone and help them get to success. And you probably never wanted to write the great American novel. You just wanted to write the sequel to Secret of Nim, which you never did.
Noah McNeely
Well, I'm working on it. Yeah, still.
Steven Julian
Okay.
Noah McNeely
It's going to be a crossover with Pokemon.
Steven Julian
Oh.
Noah McNeely
We'll talk about it.
Steven Julian
Okay. So we are, let's go back to the negative. Let's go back to the no. You tell some people not to spend money with you. You're telling them no. If I said how many different reasons are there, do you have a list? Is it 247 at this point?
Noah McNeely
Well, it's long enough that you made fun of my list when you sat down and looked at my notes.
Steven Julian
I. believe I may have yelled out an expletive that I'm glad is not on the air and I ask for forgiveness.
Noah McNeely
Be prepared to bleep stuff out, Jody.
Steven Julian
We've done that on this show, but anyway.
Noah McNeely
We have. We're going to try to keep this one from being labeled explicit. Explicit.
Steven Julian
Yeah, go ahead.
Noah McNeely
I'm sorry, I lost the question. That's all right. In that rant.
Steven Julian
There are some, so what are some of the big no's? You know, you have a big no's.
Noah McNeely
Well, that's number seven on the list.
Steven Julian
Sorry, I apologize. So what are some of the main ones that you are going to be kind enough to tell somebody to not spend any money with you?
Noah McNeely
Well, I mean, it really comes down to the person or the idea slash business approach. And if I don't see a possible path to success, then I'm going to say no. And that can be for a lot of reasons. It's just not a good idea, frankly. And I hate to say that. And I never tell people, hey, your idea is just terrible in so many words. But I do walk through some of the reasons why at. least I think it's not a good idea. Am I wrong sometimes? Absolutely. And sometimes they may go on.
They may have a wild success with it. I don't have any examples of that.
Steven Julian
Yeah. I don't think you track everybody. you said no to.
Noah McNeely
I don't. And no one's ever come back and said, ha ha, you are wrong.
Steven Julian
Remember that one conversation we had? Well, they don't come back because you didn't laugh in their face. You did say it kindly. Yeah. So sometimes it's- So you don't see a path to success. And one of those things of not having a success is, hey, there's no real market here, right?
Noah McNeely
Right. So sometimes people have this, it seems like a cool idea and it's, hey, I made this thing, do this thing. Isn't that cool? It's like, yeah, who's going to buy it? And why would they buy it? And what problem does it solve?
Steven Julian
Because I made it. I would buy it. Okay. My mom would buy it.
Noah McNeely
Why don't we make you one? And then, but the real problem there is they don't have a business. So the way I, or they don't have a. business plan around how to make that a successful business. So what I try to do in those cases is. Help them go up a level. Why did you make this thing that's super cool? Or why did you come up with this idea that's super cool? Is there a problem you were trying to solve? Is there an opportunity you're trying to take advantage of? That sounds negative.
Is there an opportunity you're trying to maximize? That's the other way of saying that. You don't want to take advantage of people. But anyway, what is that kernel of why you set out to do this? And sometimes the kernel is just, hey, I was just having fun in the garage and there's no... In those cases, I don't know where to send you. But if it's like, it's hard for me to change the oil in this car. Okay, fine. Let's look at it from that standpoint and say, okay, is it just hard for you because it's just that one specific car?
Is it just because it's you? What's the real problem? And who else might have that problem? And can we grow this product in a way? that addresses the problems of more people? Can we grow that market? At the end of the day, if it's a market of only, you know, 100 people, that's not going to be a business. We have to look beyond that. So that's one way I sometimes see there's no future.
Steven Julian
So we have covered the topic of patents on this show off and on. We've talked to patent attorneys. You've talked about the shysters who try to get people to. just all that matters is a patent. So I would imagine there have been some big no's or some triggered no's around the topic of patents for you.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, on a couple of different levels. So sometimes you meet people that sometimes I like to call them patent worshipers and they fall into a couple of different categories. There's one is like, absolutely got to patent this thing and it's got to have a patent and yada yada. And can we patent it? So at the end of the day, you can probably patent most anything. The question is, is there really something you can protect with that patent or is your patent? It's going to be so tight. and narrow that it really doesn't do you any good and you just spend a lot of money.
And not every product has to be patented. There's no law against selling a product that's not patented. It's just you have a different strategy around that. But the ones that are real problematic for me are the ones that come in, they've already got a patent. And they sit down, they tell me about what their business plan is, their patent and this, that, and the other. And they start looking at that patent as it's a recipe. We got to build what's in the patent. Like, okay, but... If we build what's in the patent, there's 12 better ways to do what you're doing that are not covered by your patent.
So do you want to build something in your patent and have someone else build something better and then you have no business? Or do you want to build the right product? But some people are so married to that. Well, I spent $10,000 on this patent. Well, number one, you should have done that. Number two, you should have talked to me first. And number three, I'm sorry. for you because that patent doesn't protect anything. It protects this one idea, this one... That narrow solution to the problem you were trying to solve, it does not protect the business you're going to launch.
Steven Julian
I'm going to give you a test because I've done this show long enough with you. I have every confidence you can pass this test. You are amazing at coming up with examples that don't really exist, but that display your idea perfectly.
Noah McNeely
I'm a little scared of where this market goes.
Steven Julian
Well, just can you give an example, not of one you worked with, protect the guilty here, but what would be an example of a patent that is so narrow that, and I guess I'm sitting here, I'll have a terrible example because my mind doesn't work the way yours does. So what's an example of somebody who would come in with a patent that does exactly what you just said? Oh, yeah, I've got this patent for an arcade machine, but the case has to be in gold. And so everybody has to pay $20 to play one game.
Noah McNeely
Let's take it to a real simple example. A fictional, obviously fictional. example. Let's say chairs and stools and benches didn't exist. Okay. Yeah, obviously they do. But let's say they didn't exist and you were the first person to come up with something to sit on. and it's a stool. And you go out and you patent the stool and that's what you want to build. And that's great. Your stool's patented. It's a three-legged stool. Fantastic. And then you're sitting with me and I say, well, you know, it'd be better if there were four legs.
Nope.
Steven Julian
It has to be three.
Noah McNeely
We're not doing four legs. It's going to be three legs because that's what's in my patent.
Steven Julian
Because the patent specifically says three legs.
Noah McNeely
Or what if it had a back to it? You know, like, nope. Not building a chair. Building a stool. It's got to have three.
Steven Julian
Well, they wouldn't say you build a chair. Not building some other product that has a back to it.
Noah McNeely
We're not going to build a stool with a back. You know, whatever it will be. So that's, I mean, that's sort of a silly example.
Steven Julian
No, that's a great example. That's a great example.
Noah McNeely
What I do run into. sometimes.
Steven Julian
That is a great example.
Noah McNeely
Some people, patent worshipers, they put so much emphasis on that patent process, which, you know, patent attorneys come in all different shapes and sizes. People know, people listen to the show know Brock. He's great. He would never do that. But some people just... You go and you hire them, they'll just patent what you tell them to patent, and that's fine, but they're not looking out for your business. They're not strategizing with you about your business.
Steven Julian
By the way, if there's anyone listening from the Church of Patentology, we do support the general overview of the truth of patents. Patents matter, right? Patents are important, but they can't be misused.
Noah McNeely
Good patents matter.
Steven Julian
Good patents matter. And bad patents are worth the paper they're printed on.
Noah McNeely
They're worth less because you spend a lot of money. Correct.
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Steven Julian
All right. So we've talked a little bit about solutions. We've talked as far as some of the reasons. you would say, no, please don't spend money with me. Talk a little bit about the people. This gets a little delicate. This gets a little, this can be troubling or not troubling. This can get you in trouble depending on how you talk about this because sometimes it's just not a good fit from people. So what are some of the things you're looking for? that?
Noah McNeely
Maybe I'll give some of the more extreme cases here to keep it amusing. But, you know, sometimes I meet people who think they're doing me a favor by letting me work on their project. And, you know, some people do have amazingly good ideas, but they think that, you know, I'll work on it at a huge discount. Or I've even had some people like, hey, you'll work on this for free and I'll give you some shares or whatever. I don't do that. And there's a lot of reasons for that. Number one, even if it is a great idea and I do take ownership in it, there's. a lot of stuff you have to do right to get that to the market that I can't help with.
Number two, I don't care how good your idea is. I've seen a lot of good ideas. And frankly, I've got some myself I don't have time to work on. So you're not doing me a favor to let me work on your idea for free. I'd be happy to work on your idea, but just like anyone else, I have to get. Get paid for it. And if you come in and that's your attitude is that this idea, which you've scribbled on the back of a napkin, is worth more than anything else in the world, including my time, then we're probably not going to have a great relationship.
Steven Julian
Jody, I want you to make a side note. We need to have a show where Noah talks about some of his own ideas that aren't necessarily great. I don't want you to give away any of your great ideas that you're not working on, but I know you've had some ideas that at one point you thought were great, and then you started thinking about it and go, well, that sucked. That was terrible.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, I try to forget those.
Steven Julian
Yeah.
Noah McNeely
I have to go back through my old notebooks.
Steven Julian
The first book I ever started to write, never finished it back when I was a youth pastor. I was going to create a book. that's what we're called. Youth ministry games that don't suck. And the reason I was going to write that is because there were so many games that did suck. And then as I started writing it, I went, well, these suck too. So I decided I can't write a book.
Noah McNeely
So it ended up being a book with one page of it? Yeah, exactly.
Steven Julian
Figure it out. I can't help you. When you talk to people, you talk to a lot of people, you talk to a lot of different type of people, a lot of different types of personalities, a lot of introverts and extroverts. You have to develop trust with them, but it goes two ways because you're working on their product. Have you come across where all of a sudden, either almost immediately or very quickly, do you have some examples of, yeah, I'm going to say no because I. don't trust you? And you probably don't word it like that, but.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, I mean, the whole, the let's make a deal, I'm doing you a favor guy kind of falls into that category a little bit. But then there's also, I've had people come in, Here with, they brought a whole entourage with them of three people that they all have business cards and they're all dressed in suits. And, you know, it turns out that that was all fake. They were all kind of on this board, but the board didn't exist in three days before he came into the meeting. So it was just, I don't know why some people feel like they need to appear to be something they aren't in order to get me to work with them.
Steven Julian
If they created a board three days before, if it was still a good idea, would you, or was it also like, this is ridiculous?
Noah McNeely
It would have to be an amazing idea.
Steven Julian
But they were presenting themselves as we've been doing this for a while.
Noah McNeely
They were presenting themselves as being much, much further along than they actually were. And to me, that was a problematic. for a couple of reasons. Number one, what else will they be dishonest about? Number two, that kind of shows. they don't trust me to make the decision to work with them just based on them. You know, it's kind of like... It's kind of like dating, which we've had a show on. If you feel like you have to pretend to be someone else to get the girl to like you, she's not the one for you.
Steven Julian
Yeah, you're right. I would imagine we have to bring up the topic of money when it comes to saying yes or no, you know, saying yes, I'll work with you or no. Again, you're not just about making the money, but... But it might also not, but when I say let's talk about money, I'm not even talking about the money they're paying you. It might have to do with the money around their project. Right.
Noah McNeely
And that's, you know, that's one of the reasons I actually try to give prices out very early for my, you know, when I start to scope out a project for somebody. Let's say they pass these other tiers. Hey, we get along. Well, they. trust me. I trust them. It's, you know, I don't see any immediate. I see a fairly clear path to production. Well, at that point, I'm going to scope the project out in very broad brush terms and put some numbers on that. And to your point, the numbers I'm putting out there for my services, they're not the biggest numbers that are going to be involved.
So if those numbers, again, which are lower than the average, well lower than if you go to other firms that work with bigger companies, if those... Numbers are way too big for you. Then you're never going to be able to get this project across the finish line. There are a lot of people out there that will happily take your money to get you halfway there. And that's really not what I want to do. So oftentimes those people, I try to explain to you, look, this is, this seemed like a big number to you.
So that's problematic because this is really one of the smaller numbers that you're going to run into. So we really need to focus your efforts on how can you go out and raise money? How can you use other people's money for this? Don't hire me to fully engineer this thing because you're not ready for that yet. You need to think about how to most use what resources you have to get other resources.
Steven Julian
You've said it a few different ways on the show over the years, but that whole path to success, just the fact that if somebody has absolutely zero clue of what the path is in terms of money, in terms of time, in terms of effort, in terms of steps. When you meet with someone and they're going, you're all of a sudden realizing they have no clue what this is going to take.
Noah McNeely
And, you know, sometimes they've gone to Upwork or Fiverr and hired someone to do a CAD drawing for them, which is, you know, let's pay this guy $300 to do it. And it's like, okay, but it's wrong. It does not reflect the way you produce a product. You know, we're never going to get there.
Steven Julian
Yeah, it's never going to happen. Apologies to our listeners if you heard that little noise in the background. We just had Frank come to the door, Noah, of Frank's Cheese Hammers.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, he brought us a delivery of hammers and a cease and desist letter. And for some reason, the hammer I pulled out is engraved with... Die, Noah Die.
Steven Julian
Yeah, mine says Die, Steven Die. Jody, did you get one that says Die, Jody? No, I guess not, because he never talks on the show.
Noah McNeely
Everyone likes Jody.
Steven Julian
Everybody likes Jody. Everybody loves the producers. Yeah, so, which I'm not sure if Frank's trying to make peace or, I know the war's not over. No, certainly not. So, Frank of Frank's Cheese Hammers, you can go to hell. All right. Anyway, just to continue that. We bleeped it out, I'm sure.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, I'll help him design his next round of cheese hammers.
Steven Julian
Exactly. We'll figure it out. I believe it's cheese cleavers next time, right? Or cheese, not cheese graters, it's cheese tenderizers.
Noah McNeely
Well, it'll be AI-powered cheese tenderizers.
Steven Julian
The other, I think the longtime listeners of this show, we say it almost every time at the end of the show, there's probably one other. Trigger for you at least one other. that's kind of a big no, which is I have an idea. People who. just want to invent something, right?
Noah McNeely
That's me.
Steven Julian
I just want to invent something, Noah.
Noah McNeely
I have an idea can be fine. That's not necessarily a bad thing other than the fact that it doesn't give me any information to prepare for our meeting with, you know, because that can be everything from. it's a new type of cereal or which I can't help with. It's an AI-powered cheese hammer, which I probably also can't help with.
Steven Julian
How does AI power a cheese hammer?
Noah McNeely
That's the mystery, isn't it?
Steven Julian
Have you plugged cheese hammers into AI lately? Oh, I know what we're going to do after the show. Absolutely.
Noah McNeely
We're going to do that. All right. Yeah, so sometimes I run into people and they just are desperate to invent something. I had a client I worked with years ago. He came up with this idea in this one industry, which was, it was fine. It wasn't a bad idea, but then he's like, I want to do something different because that one wasn't paying out. So then he came up with an idea in a totally different industry. These are all industries he knew nothing about. So he was. just like, hey, I heard this could be a problem and I'm going to go solve it.
That sometimes does work out and that's fine. But if your goal is just to invent something because you want to be an inventor, that's not ideal. You really want to think about what are the business. I mean, otherwise inventing is a hobby for you and that's fine. You want that to be a hobby. That's great. But the people I prefer to work with are those that really want to build a business and understand what that means.
Steven Julian
If you want to build a better mousetrap, you should have at least trapped at least one mouse in your experience. That's right. To then figure out how to do it better.
Noah McNeely
And you should say, okay, who's going to bye-bye? Who am I developing this better mousetrap for? And should it really be for mice?
Steven Julian
It's AI powered and it costs $10,000, but it'll get rid of the one mouse that comes through your house every decade. All right. So when you say no, what does that mean?
Noah McNeely
Well, I don't typically.
Steven Julian
No means no. I'm sorry. That was the obvious one.
Noah McNeely
No means no except $20,000. Yeah. No means no. But I don't actually just say no. I've never said no, get out. I don't think I've ever said that.
Steven Julian
That's another challenge for me to try and accept and have him do.
Noah McNeely
So I do try to have what I would call a good bedside manner about these things. So if I do see a problem, let's say it is a business problem. You've got this really expensive solution for a really inexpensive problem. Okay, it's a new mousetrap that's going to cost $300. That's going to replace a 50-cent mousetrap. Okay, so that's a problem from a business standpoint. If I see that right out the gate, I'm going to give them some homework to do. I'm going to say, okay, go think about the business plan.
Who would buy this at these prices? And understanding that it has to be this price because you've got this AI system and all this other stuff going on with it that other mousetraps don't have. Who would buy it? Is there a market? Can you build a business around that? If it's something like... It doesn't have that clear market potential. Whatever it is, I try to give them some homework to address whatever the problem I see. that, at least in my mind, is this is definitely not going to make it kind of a problem.
I give them homework and say, you know, I really am not comfortable taking on the project without these things being resolved. And it's stuff I can't resolve. Now, if it's an engineering problem, that's what I do. I can help you figure that out. Design problem, I can help you figure that out. Business plan problem, that I can't help you with. I can give you suggestions on, hey, what you need to fix. Some people, they really appreciate that. I never hear from them. Some people really appreciate it and they come back.
They go and solve it and they come back. I've had people that, you know, they've disappeared for years and then they come back and say, hey, you know, you were right. That was a bad plan. I've done this now. It's no longer going to be an AI powered mousetrap. It's going to be whatever. And we work together. I've had clients that, I had one client disappeared. for six years and then he came back and we worked together and I helped him get his product developed. Nice. About half the people kind of get pissed off at me and I never hear from them either.
Again, they're just like, well, I don't understand why it won't work with me and this, that, and the other. I'm willing to pay.
Steven Julian
They take it personally.
Noah McNeely
They take it personally. It's not personal. I'm actually trying to look out for you. And my fear for those people is they'll just go out and find the next engineer who is glad to take their money and get them halfway there or get them a third of the way there or just to keep. Keep billing them to do stuff. that's never going to get anywhere. Now, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt that some of those engineers and developers, they just don't understand that it's not going to get anywhere.
They don't see it the way I see it. And they're just putting their head down and doing their job as engineers. That's fine. I get that. That's still not helpful to the client at the. end of the day. And then others are like, I'm sure there's some unscrupulous people out there that's like, oh, this is the best thing ever. I can see where you're going with this. This is going to be fantastic. I bet you're going to be on the market in two years and you're going to make millions of dollars to pay me.
Steven Julian
Yeah, we interviewed Evil Noah.
Noah McNeely
We did. Evil Noah is based on real people. Yeah. Sadly.
Steven Julian
And maybe the dark corner of your soul that you keep down because you're doing the... Good of the good Noah.
Noah McNeely
No, there's no dark corner to my soul. Oh, okay. All right. Do you have some personal issues you need to talk about?
Steven Julian
Oh, I got tons of them, but that's another show. So, yeah. And, you know, okay. So, actually, I'm going to ask your forgiveness because I started the show by saying we're revisiting the topic. I don't think we've ever done the topic like this. But everything you've said in this show has been a piece of another show that we've done.
Noah McNeely
Well, that's true.
Steven Julian
I mean, not everything, but most everything we've talked about.
Noah McNeely
Slicing it. different ways sometimes helps get the point across differently. And it helps. Sometimes I'm thinking about the same. I realize I'm thinking about the same problem. It doesn't feel like the same problem, you know, but it. On some level, sometimes it is.
Steven Julian
Well, and there's an old saying that there's only so many stories. And the reality is that these are topics that we're going to keep bringing up because it's some of the main topics you deal with as someone who tries to help people develop a product and get it to market. And as a part of that, there's also another side of that, which is you believe it is your job and it is the right thing to do to tell some people this isn't going to work like this. And if you want it to work, you need to do this, this, or this, or change this, this, or this.
Noah McNeely
As I'm sure I've said, I've met so many people that have wasted their life savings. They've sold grandma's ring. They've done all this stuff, spending money for the wrong things. And I don't want to ever be a part of that. I don't ever. want to be a part of that. And that's why I'm going to call it like I see it. Again, I'm not always right. Sometimes I say, hey, this has got no future, and I'm sure it does. Sometimes. You know, I do see a path forward and eventually that kind of runs its course.
You know, sometimes that path forward doesn't go all the way to the end. And I like to use an approach that some people call fail fast because if we're going to reach that no-go point, I want to help you reach it as fast as possible. Now, hopefully we don't. Hopefully we get you all the way to the market. But sometimes, you know, if we can reach a no-go after we've been working together three weeks, that's great. That saves you a ton of money. Yeah.
Steven Julian
So we're going to do something to end the show that we haven't done in a long time. I know we've done it in the past, but this is the perfect time for me to ask you to do this. I always end the show and go, hey, if you want to work with Noah, here's what. you need to do. I'm going to let you do it because this whole show has been about you revealing to the audience why you tell some people not to work with you. So if people are interested in trying to work with you, how do they do that?
Where does that start?
Noah McNeely
And let me be clear. I'm not trying to tell people not to work with me. I'm trying to tell people not to spend money with anybody until they do certain things. Okay. Some people just are jerks and I don't want to work with them. But for the most part, it's looking out for you.
Steven Julian
And you tell them in a way, you never say no. You never say no, get out. Right.
Noah McNeely
Now, someone listening to this show might take it as a personal challenge to send me someone that I'm going to have to say no to. We'll see if that happens.
Steven Julian
And part of why I'm asking you to do this is because apparently one of the goals for this year of our show is going to, you maybe mentioned to me that you're getting more just very casual contacts. Call me. Call.
Noah McNeely
me. I've got an idea. Yeah, we're getting more and more of that.
Steven Julian
So we need to cut that out.
Noah McNeely
But no, I can help you better if you give me more information. Don't tell me any secrets, but tell me, you know, call me. I've got an idea for a new type of hunting stand. Okay, great. That gives me a little bit of research. Call me. I've got a new idea for a ball game. Okay, great.
Steven Julian
A cheese hammer.
Noah McNeely
Call me. I've got a new idea for peanuts. Okay. I don't know what that means. I don't know if I can help you with a new idea for peanuts, but I'll talk to you. We'll figure it out.
Steven Julian
We're not doing packing peanuts. We're doing packing avocados now. So, and what I wanted to ask is I wanted to give you the opportunity to verbally say to our audience for the first time in a while, if people want to work with you, what is that process like? Where does it start?
Noah McNeely
So, I'll run through the first few bits. The first thing, please just go to the website. Ideally, there's two things there that you can. do. The contact us form. Let's just sort of just type whatever you want there, preferably I'm so-and-so, I've got this idea for something, something I want to talk to. That's, if you do nothing else, do that. There's also a self-assessment form, which asks you other types of questions, which helps me to better prepare for a call. Once I get that from you, I'm going to reach back out and give you some options for setting up a phone call, just a calendar system I use.
And you go in and you find a time that works for you and we'll get on a call and we'll talk. After that, if everything looks like, hey, we could actually work together, then I will come back to you with something I mentioned early on, a very early scope, which will have pricing and basically an outline of, hey, based on everything we talked about, here's what needs to happen and here's what that's going to cost.
Steven Julian
The other thing that we haven't mentioned a lot on the show is on Product Quickstart, the website, there's a lot of other resources, free resources people can read, look at, look up, links. So it's a great place, if nothing else, if you're just starting out, even before they reach out to you, they can impart some knowledge to themselves and get themselves better prepared to talk to you.
Noah McNeely
There's that. And the other thing I would add, because my goal is really to help people in this community. I have a fairly extensive network of people that are startup and inventor friendly that do things I don't do. So you may have, hey, I wish I knew somebody that knew how to do patents. You can call me. I will gladly refer you. And I don't get in the middle of that. I just refer you. Like I said, I've got plenty to do. Investors, licensing, whatever it is that you have a need for, I may know somebody.
Steven Julian
I love it. So productquickstart.com, that's where people need to go.
Noah McNeely
Yes, productquickstart.com. Start there. Please don't just say, call me. Okay. Because most of the time when I get, just call me, it's someone trying to sell me something. So I'm probably not going to respond.
Steven Julian
Now, so that's, so that's product. quick start. We, the, the show Product Genius has. come out of that and we've been recording from the lair. So Noah, thank you very much for that. Thank you. I want to remind everybody that this show is produced by Jody Smith. If you want to learn how to podcast, you can go to jodysmith.com. You know what you can do on his contact us form? You can just put call me. And he won't have a problem with that because he knows it's about, because if it's not about podcasting, he's going to go, why are you calling me?
Why are you asking me to call you? Anyway, and I, you can look up my name, but I can't tell you what I do because compliance will get all over me. So for Noah and for Joey, this is your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian, saying we'll catch you next time on Product Genius.