Product Genius, the Podcast for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and Startups

Steven Julian

Imagine, if you will, a world where Noah doesn't have his client's best interests at heart. A world where Noah believes that a fool and his money are soon parted.

Evil Noah

Will you shut up already and get to the show? This is about me. You're taking my time.

Steven Julian

It's Evil Noah, next on Product Genius. Do you want to be a successful inventor entrepreneur? Struggling to get your product from idea to market? Well, you've come to the right place. Welcome to Product Genius. The down-to-earth podcast that explores important topics about inventing and launching new products. Noah McNeely is your trusted guide. With more than 20 years of product launch experience, he's here to help you on your journey to become a product genius. Let's get started. Here's your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian. Hey, that's my line. Yes! It's a very special edition.

Of Product Genius. Very different. Very weird. Very avant-garde, shall I say. I am your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian. I am seated next to the intrepid producer, Jody Smith. I am seated across. Not from Noah McNeely. No, no, not this time. It's different. He calls himself Evil Noah. It's Evil Noah McNeely.

Evil Noah

That's. what people call me. Now, I don't normally talk to people to use French words in their intro, but I'll make an exception.

Steven Julian

Okay. Jody, we have to be on our best behavior. I don't know if I can do that. So, first of all, is regular Noah okay?

Evil Noah

As far as I know. I haven't seen the guy. Okay. So, this... I'm not like. evil kill people. Correct.

Steven Julian

Correct. Yeah. So let me, let me ask you that. Can you define?

Evil Noah

So you sent a different Noah.

Steven Julian

Yeah. You sent an email, uh, you sent an email as, as Noah normally does and said, I think it's time an interview with evil Noah. So please define for our audience what you mean by evil Noah. Cause this is actually Noah. So define what you mean.

Evil Noah

You want me to explain the meaning of the word evil?

Steven Julian

Yes, because apparently that might even be up for debate and everybody calls the other side evil.

Evil Noah

I'm not going to get into a theological definition of evil, but let's just say this is a Noah that doesn't have inventors' best interests at heart and is representative of a lot of actual real. people, maybe evil, maybe not, that real Noah has met along the way.

Steven Julian

Correct. Okay. So this is an amalgamation character. Okay.

Evil Noah

I'm doing a caricature of people I try to be the opposite of. Very good.

Steven Julian

So, Bizarro Noah.

Evil Noah

Yep.

Steven Julian

Which apparently Jody brought up that in some past episode, you thought that could be an excuse for lazy writing. I think, I don't know. Yeah.

Evil Noah

But it's not the excuse here because I didn't write any of this stuff down.

Steven Julian

Correct. Mirror universe or mirror, what?

Evil Noah

Mirrorverse.

Steven Julian

Mirror realm. Yeah. Mirrorverse from Star Trek.

Evil Noah

They don't use the word realm. Hold on.

Steven Julian

Calm down. The mirrorverse in Star Trek where evil Kirk and Spock and all them. The Justice League had that. where there was Owlman and Ultraman was the Superman. Rick and Morty, which I don't think you've ever seen, but Rick and Morty had that one episode where they're in a different, they kind of split their personalities. So again, this is an amalgamation character of not evil, but people that interact with inventors, entrepreneurs different than regular Noah does.

Evil Noah

Well, yeah. Maybe not evil, but certainly not good.

Steven Julian

Yeah, not have their best interest. All. right, so do you want to tell us how you got here?

Evil Noah

I don't know. There's a guy wearing a robe. He had this thing in his hand, started waving it around, and there was this sparkly little circle. I walked through, and next thing I know, I'm here, and you've got Starbucks everywhere, and it's, yeah. Very good. Yeah, it's a place, I guess.

Steven Julian

Well, where you came from, what's that like?

Evil Noah

It's a lot like here. It's, you know, some things are different. We have pumpkin spice all year long. Wow. Miley Cyrus is the president. I don't know why everyone here laughs at that whenever I say it.

Steven Julian

Yeah. Is she doing a good job over there?

Evil Noah

Well, fortunately, Steve Buscemi is her vice president, so he keeps her in line.

Steven Julian

So who's really?

Evil Noah

She's the one who mandated the pumpkin spice all year long. Yeah.

Steven Julian

Don't you get tired of that?

Evil Noah

Of course.

Steven Julian

Okay.

Evil Noah

I've never enjoyed pumpkin spice and now we're stuck with it.

Steven Julian

So you also, in the other world, you work with inventors and entrepreneurs just like Noah does here.

Evil Noah

Yeah, I work them over pretty good.

Steven Julian

That's not what I asked. That's. not what I said. So what's your philosophy when it comes to working with inventors and entrepreneurs? What's your, not Noah McNeely of Product Quickstart, but Evil Noah of... Product bad start. What's your philosophy when it comes to working with inventors?

Evil Noah

Well, most everybody has an idea. And the people that have a little bit of money, my job is to get that money and tell them how great their idea is while doing the minimum amount of work. That's my philosophy.

Steven Julian

Got it. And do you have some success stories of... Uh, of, of doing that.

Evil Noah

Oh yeah. One, this one guy got 30 grand out of, and he, he got nowhere. He had no idea what was going on. He was happy.

Steven Julian

What was the idea? Or have you forgotten that?

Evil Noah

No, it was this thing that is a, it was a, I don't know, it was this box that would pet your dog for you or something. Okay. Yeah. Who cares?

Steven Julian

Have, do you have any success stories of, for the inventor, where the inventor actually succeeded working with you?

Evil Noah

Um, I don't know. Once they stopped paying me, I kind of, you know, I kind. of lose track of what they do. All right. Maybe some of them had what they call success. I doubt it. They were all, you know, I work with anybody.

Steven Julian

So I, we, for longtime listeners of this show, when they've talked to our Noah, I don't know if he's ever, I don't know if he's ever answered this specifically, but he talks about the clients.

Evil Noah

That guy's a chump.

Steven Julian

Okay. He talks about, he talks about his clients and, you know. We've kind of asked what's the ideal client that comes to him. And it's someone who has an idea and has started to work on the idea, some level of kind of knowing some information. And he gets to help them bring their product to market. What does your perfect, how do you spot the perfect client in your world?

Evil Noah

Well, they think they have a great idea. They are open to lots of suggestions. Oh, well, that's good. Not every suggestion is going to work out for them, I guess, but they're open to a lot of suggestions that are going to cost them a lot of money. They've got deep pockets and they have no idea. how much things cost.

Steven Julian

Give an example of some of the suggestions you offer that are good for you.

Evil Noah

Well, you know, if we can add some electronics to anything, that's going to at least double or triple the product. Well, probably more because they have no idea. Even if it's a button with a wire, they don't know how complicated. We're simple that is, but I can easily add 10 grand for that.

Steven Julian

Okay.

Evil Noah

That one skateboard with a button we did, that was fantastic.

Steven Julian

Didn't you have a product that like, is it the more, are you trying to help them get the product to market or are you trying to just keep them constantly changing because of more suggestions?

Evil Noah

Well, like I said, my philosophy is to get all the money I can out of them. If they get to the market before they use up all the money, eh, that's okay. I don't really care. My goal is to take them all the way to the end of their bank account. Ah, so that means the market.

Steven Julian

Is that your mission?

Evil Noah

Yeah, I mean, it usually, I don't know. Like I said, after they stopped paying. me, I kind of lose track. Some of them probably made it to the market.

Steven Julian

So when someone comes to you, and by the way, how do you find your leads? How do you find your clients?

Evil Noah

Well, I do a lot of advertising, mostly with pop-up ads, and I've got this robot that calls people on their cell phones.

Steven Julian

And that gets a great response? Are people happy to get that?

Evil Noah

Well, in my universe, people will just hire you to get those calls to stop.

Steven Julian

Ah, so you do the calls. And so the first potential client you have is people who go, can you get these calls to stop?

Evil Noah

Yeah, absolutely. Well, they'll at least listen to you. I'll listen to you if you'll stop calling me. And so, you know, then I can tell if they're a sucker right away.

Steven Julian

And when someone starts with you and someone reaches out to you because of that pop-up ad, what does the first conversation look like? Where do you start? What's the process look like?

Evil Noah

Well, you know, I tell them how great I am and all the stuff I've done and all the, you know, been president. of this, that, and the other. And then they go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah about what their ideas have. I don't care what it is. I'm telling them, that's fantastic. That's an amazing idea. You know, they'll go into like, they'll get all excited, of course. Like, we're going to sell a million of these. I'm going to get a Walmart. I'm going to get in Target. I'm going to do all this.

I jump in and I say, no, you're thinking too small. We're going to sell 10 million of these. And we're going to get into every store in the country, Canada, and in Europe. Wow. Hey, it makes them happy. You know, they're happy. I'm doing my job.

Steven Julian

Hmm. Hmm. Interesting.

Evil Noah

Real easy to get them to sign a check after that.

Steven Julian

And then is it, so what's the percentage of people who write a second check? How do you keep them on the hook?

Evil Noah

Well, the secret there is you don't go after one big check at a time. You know, you get a starter check and then you go back to them and say, hey, look, we've been working on this thing. It's a. little different than what we thought. Here's an opportunity. If we add a button, You know, we can make it this much better. Write us a little check for that. Then a couple weeks later, we go back and say, hey, if we, you know.

Steven Julian

If we make this a smart device that creates a Wi-Fi network.

Evil Noah

Yeah, whatever. Whatever crap we want to make up. The secret is you can't get all the money at one time because, you know, they're not going to go for that. But dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble. You can get all the money eventually.

Steven Julian

So one of the most important things is just get them on the hook, right? Get them to do something. Get them to start. And the way you do that is telling them, oh, you're not going to sell a million.

Evil Noah

Well, you have to get them to the point where they feel like they've invested so much already that they have to keep going or else they're going to throw all that money away.

Steven Julian

Interesting. Now, you said in the very first call that you throw at them how smart you are and the different letters. Yeah, they don't. know. Can you do a pitch meeting? With us, can you do a 30-second, can I call you into character? Imagine I'm sitting across from you, I have an idea for a Brian Snitker memorial doll since he just stepped down from the Atlanta Braves and I want to put him in stores and I think there'd be a lot of Braves fans who would buy this. What would you say?

Evil Noah

That's a great idea. You know, I was an expert in memorial dolls for years. I developed a bunch of those. He's not dead. Well, you know, he will be eventually.

Steven Julian

Maybe he should get some life insurance.

Evil Noah

Absolutely.

Steven Julian

I got to even know to laugh.

Evil Noah

Well, you know, we laugh. Usually I'm laughing after the client hangs up, but you're not a real client. So I tell them about all the dolls I've done and how. I can't give them any specifics because that's all confidential. You know, I say, well, we've got a lot that have been on the market and I have never done a doll. But anyway, they don't know that. I tell them about all the degrees I have. What degrees?

Steven Julian

Tell us what. your great degrees on that side.

Evil Noah

That's probably the same as your. Noah here has, you know, engineering.

Steven Julian

He's never told us about his degrees.

Evil Noah

Like I said, he's a chump.

Steven Julian

Oh, okay.

Evil Noah

So I tell them about all this stuff and all this, you know, use all these fancy words like engineering stuff that they're not going to understand. I make up half of it anyway. You know, like, what are they doing that? You have Star Trek here, right? I do. Yeah. So what are they doing? Star Trek? They have this, you know. That's a technical word that means absolutely nothing. I do the same thing. It works for most people. If it doesn't work on them, that's fine. I'll have five calls later in the day and I'll work on one of them.

Steven Julian

The anti-gravity quantum containment field?

Evil Noah

I'm going to use that.

Steven Julian

I like it. You're welcome. I'll send you a bill.

Evil Noah

What was your question about the typical sales call? Okay, so I go through all that and then tell them how great their ideas are. Hey, your ideas. We're role-playing here. It's a great idea. You know, you'll sell that in every Walmart. You know, even though it's like a Brave specific thing, I think we can market that just right all over the country.

Steven Julian

They're known as America's team.

Evil Noah

Well, exactly. Yeah, yeah. The superstars. Everybody's watched it. Everybody's a fan. You just don't realize it. So we'll get that everywhere, you know, probably six months to get it developed.

Steven Julian

Okay.

Evil Noah

It's really going to take a lot.

Steven Julian

I can get this into Walmarts in six months?

Evil Noah

Probably, yeah. I don't see why not.

Steven Julian

You can help me do that?

Evil Noah

Of course. That's what I do. All right.

Steven Julian

You kind of talked about not getting the big check up front, but just continuing to get those checks and keep them on the hook. What are some of the things you charge for? How do you typically charge to get that?

Evil Noah

Well, I charge for the first call. You know, there's a consultation fee on that first call.

Steven Julian

Noah doesn't charge for the first call. Oh, he's a chump.

Evil Noah

Yeah, I'm figuring.

Steven Julian

Jody, write that down. Noah's a chump.

Evil Noah

Again, my role is to take all the money I can. So I charge for that first call. That way, even if they don't. want to do the project, I've already gotten a little money out of them. I charge by the hour. And, you know, I'll give them this estimate. The estimate's always, I always lowball the estimate. And then. And we get in and, well, there's more stuff to do here than we thought, and it's a little more complicated. But that's good news because that means your product is really unique. Nobody else is going to do it.

And so, yeah, it's a good thing that it's complicated. I'm spending more time on it. You want me spending time on your project, right? So the hours add up. And so I'll charge them for pretending to do engineering. I'll charge them for... Market research that I'm just pretty much making up or I'll have, you know, you've got AI here, right? So, you know, I'll ask the AI, you know, what's, how do we market this, you know, stupid little doll thing? Well, I'll fancy it up a little bit, spend maybe 30 minutes on, I'll give it to them.

It's probably a $2,000 report and, you know, kind of judged by how thick it is and, you know, we'll charge. them for that. And I don't know, what do I not charge for is probably a better question. And the answer is nothing.

Steven Julian

If they're in your office and they get- Oh, there's a fee for that. Oh. Yeah.

Evil Noah

So I got to wear shoes.

Steven Julian

If they get a coffee?

Evil Noah

Oh, well, there's a fee for that. It's included, but- Well, we have a coffee machine. you put dollars in.

Steven Julian

Oh, okay.

Evil Noah

Wow. They're not paying me, they're paying the machine, but I get all the money later. Oh.

Steven Julian

So talk about patents in your world. What role do patents play for Evil Noah?

Evil Noah

Well- It's really frustrating to me sometimes when people come to me and they've already spent money on a patent because that's money I could have gotten. But if they have, I'll kind of use it to my advantage and I'll say, look, the federal government, the federal government thinks your idea is worthy of a patent. So you'd be stupid.

Steven Julian

Miley Cyrus thinks my idea is worthy of a patent?

Evil Noah

Or Steve Buscemi, whoever, you know, I don't know who runs the patent office these days, but yeah, it rolls up all the way to. them. Point is. If the government thinks your idea is good enough to get a patent, you've got to spend whatever it takes to get this on the market because it's going to be a success. I mean, the government says so.

Steven Julian

People buy that?

Evil Noah

It's enough due to, you know, pay for my yacht. Whoa.

Steven Julian

Wow. Interesting. So, I think you've already kind of been answering this question, but let me ask it in a more direct way. What is your approach, Evil Noah's approach, to product development?

Evil Noah

Slow. Slow and no progress. Slow, slower, slower. Whatever minimal amount of progress we have to show to keep the client on the hook is what we do.

Steven Julian

So Noah, our Noah.

Evil Noah

Yeah, our process is, you know, we try to break it up into about 35 different phases. Okay. And each phase has sort of a minimum fee associated with it. And we'll do phase one of 35, put out a very small deliverable, charge them for it. Then we'll do the review meeting, which we charge them for. And then we'll, you know, we'll get their feedback, which means we've got to change everything. So we're going to charge. them for that too.

Steven Julian

So our Noah has talked a lot. On some of our shows about trying to help people get a minimum viable product, you know, the MVP, get that product to market to see if it's a sustainable thing. I'm hearing you, that you feel like your role is to do the minimum amount of progress. So map.

Evil Noah

Well, I mean, we'll eventually sometimes get there, but we don't do that. I don't understand the minimum viable product approach. Why would you? Why would I want to do that? I can't.

Steven Julian

Because the inventor entrepreneur.

Evil Noah

That's going to be quick. I'm going to get done. I'm not going to be able to charge them much.

Steven Julian

Well, the inventor entrepreneur is trying to make a business.

Evil Noah

So? We're talking about my business. Why would I care about their business?

Steven Julian

Isn't your business to help their business? No. When you help their business, doesn't that lead to more business? Because they tell others about you.

Evil Noah

Yeah, there's plenty of inventors out there that are desperate for someone to tell them how great their idea is. I don't need them to tell anybody how great I am.

Steven Julian

When you tell. them how great their idea is, do you use a different tone of voice than you're kind of using with me? Because it sounds like...

Evil Noah

Oh, yeah, of course.

Steven Julian

Put on your best pitch voice.

Evil Noah

So I can tell you've done a lot of research here. I can tell you looked at the market. You've really thought about this problem. That really impresses me a lot. In fact, you're... Probably one of the most impressive inventors I've met this year. So I love the fact that there's a really large target market for this. And I think, you know, even though it's probably going to be a $300 product, there's a market for that. We can make this happen. Is that a little bit better? It's a little better.

Steven Julian

You might need an energy drink. Noah over here needs energy drinks. He uses Monster. What do you have over there? Pumpkin spice?

Evil Noah

We don't have energy drinks. Oh. Bizarro world.

Steven Julian

Interesting. So it is bizarre.

Evil Noah

Maybe that's why it sucks.

Steven Julian

Is it bizarro or is it mirrorverse or is it?

Evil Noah

It depends on your cultural frame of reference.

Steven Julian

By the way, what did they call it in Doctor Strange? It. was the mirror universe.

Evil Noah

The multiverse.

Steven Julian

Well, no, not the multiverse, the mirror dimension.

Evil Noah

Yeah, but that's different.

Steven Julian

But that was just opposite.

Evil Noah

That's a totally different thing.

Steven Julian

Yeah, okay, okay, okay. I'm sorry. Goodness gracious.

Evil Noah

You know, in my world, Steven knows his cultural references perfectly.

Steven Julian

In your world, does Steven know the name of Nim? Is it legend or secret? Does he say it right all the time or does he? Do you tell him he's really good with his cultural references?

Evil Noah

Listen, in our world, it's called the secret legend of Nim.

Steven Julian

Okay. All right. And Steven and Jody pay to do your show, right? That's in your world.

Evil Noah

Yeah. I mean, it's a privilege to work with me. Exactly.

Steven Julian

Because of all the degrees and all the things.

Evil Noah

Because then they get to go tell people, hey, look, I produced this show. Pay me money. I get to work with Noah.

Steven Julian

Right. So do inventors in your world, do they work with mentors, guides? You know, what kind of mentorship happens over there?

Evil Noah

Well, you know, I tell people that your best mentor is the person that knows you best. So go talk to your mom, ask her what she thinks of your idea. And that works out well for me most of the time.

Steven Julian

What do most moms say in that scenario?

Evil Noah

Moms love it. It doesn't matter how bad the idea is. Moms typically love it. Now, if mom's not available or if mom's a little more honest, I guess, they'll say, go talk to your best friend or whoever loves you the most. That's who you want to talk to and get their opinion of your idea and get them to guide you through it.

Steven Julian

When it comes to bringing a product to market. And how you work with people on that side.

Evil Noah

Oh, I don't want them to talk to anyone other than me. Absolutely. I don't give them any references.

Steven Julian

You said mothers.

Evil Noah

Well, I don't want them to talk to anyone that knows how to make a product. I mean, you know, talk to your mom, sure. Unless she's an engineer, then don't talk to her. Just talk to me, me and me alone. I'm not going to give you anybody else to talk to.

Steven Julian

I have saved this question for almost the last. I don't know if it'll be. the last question I asked, but I have saved it for this point because I am. I can't wait to hear your answer to this. Do you have any mottos or mantras that you live by as an evil product developer?

Evil Noah

A fool and his money or make a great client. There's a sucker born every day. Those are about the same thing. Nobody cares about your feelings. That's a good one. I use that a lot when people call me up at the end and say, I never got to the market. I used up all my money. I feel bad. Nobody cares about your feelings. Click.

Steven Julian

Yeah. That's good.

Evil Noah

Has anyone ever— Don't call me again or I'll sue you. I like that one.

Steven Julian

That's a good one, too. That's usually what require— Yeah.

Evil Noah

Because I make them sign you out like this 30-page terms and conditions document. I don't even know what's in there, but nobody reads it.

Steven Julian

Are you a big fan of Denny Crane from Boston Legal? Do you have that show on your universe?

Evil Noah

I don't know. I don't watch that. Okay. Not familiar.

Steven Julian

After you hang up on them, has anyone ever come? back and been really upset that you— Didn't help them get their product to market?

Evil Noah

No, I blocked their number.

Steven Julian

Oh, okay. All right. So you mentioned the differences, a little bit of the differences in our world when you came over here. What other differences have you noticed now that you're on this side?

Evil Noah

Well, to be honest, it's about the same. You know, there's a lot of people here with ideas and they don't seem to know what to do with them. And it seems like there's other people like me out here that are... No. I think I would feel at home here.

Steven Julian

Yeah, so you've already found maybe a firm or two or a group, and I'm not going to ask you to give any names to protect the guilty, but you kind of go, oh, I could get in with that group and I'd fit in well.

Evil Noah

Yeah, you can do a search online. You can find plenty of that stuff.

Steven Julian

Interesting, interesting. Have you, you know, you might run for political office, you know, keep telling people what they want to hear.

Evil Noah

Well, I mean, in my world, Most of our politicians are celebrities, so I don't know if I'd... Ever since Elvis was president back in the 80s, it's kind of been that way.

Steven Julian

Oh, wow. How'd he do?

Evil Noah

He did fine.

Steven Julian

Did he get that next level of black belt on your side?

Evil Noah

Black belt?

Steven Julian

Yeah, he was a black belt in karate and... I don't know.

Evil Noah

I don't read much history. Oh, okay.

Steven Julian

Doesn't do any good, so... I think it's time, Jody, is it time to get Noah back? Can we get our Noah back? Do I need to throw the chant out of... Dark crystal, labyrinth, fraggle rock, or do I need to sing?

Evil Noah

Oh, I'm hoping Jody can put a special effect sound here. Absolutely. That'd be amazing. You're the best around.

Steven Julian

That's what'll get Noah back. Nothing will ever keep you down.

Evil Noah

I put evil Noah persona aside. Fantastic.

Steven Julian

It is our Noah back. Noah McNeely of Product Quickstart is here.

Evil Noah

And I will once again start taking my pills so evil Noah can remain away. Exactly.

Steven Julian

Oh, actually, I guess it would be more kind of Matrix, the latest Matrix movie where you got to take that, you know, you got to take the blue pill. to keep that other one.

Evil Noah

You know, I heard that movie was horrible, so I never watched it.

Steven Julian

It's actually pretty good. Is it really? Yeah. It's, I think, okay, quick sidetrack, right? I've earned that.

Evil Noah

People know we're not tolerated this, but I'm all ears.

Steven Julian

Yeah. I would say, Jody, have you seen the last one? Okay. I'll say this. When you watch the first Matrix, it's so earth-shattering. It's so amazing. It's so great. There's so many levels in the philosophical and all that.

Evil Noah

And then the second one sucked.

Steven Julian

If you watched the second and third one, it was so much more about the fighting and all that, and it really wasn't that good of a story. So it kind of went downhill. I would say the last one went back to a little bit of... Wow. Okay. That's different. That's unique. That's an interesting take on the story.

Evil Noah

Matrix Revolutions? Yeah.

Steven Julian

No, the last one was Resurrections, I believe. Okay. And so it's this nice little, they went back to, ooh, didn't see that coming? That's kind of interesting. It does get a little ridiculous, especially kind of, but they also are like, let's, how can? we add something new? And so they had a little bit new and the fights are okay, but it does get to where it's like, okay, come on, this is a little silly. But all in all, definitely better than the second and third. Definitely better than the second and third, in my opinion.

If nothing else for the, ooh, that's an interesting twist on the story. So that's what I would say.

Evil Noah

I'll find time to check it out.

Steven Julian

And our loyal fans can now email and they can go on the product quick start contact page and go, tell Steven he's an idiot. This is terrible. Here's why.

Evil Noah

Just for reference, we do not have a loyal fans account or any other type of fans account. Correct.

Steven Julian

There is a paywall behind it anyway.

Evil Noah

He was using that as two separate words, loyal space fans.

Steven Julian

Loyal space fans. Loyal space fans. So this, of course, came from your famous, send an email. I will not say where it came from or what, because one of our last shows we were talking about, it was the CBD and mushroom. So this was apparently the bourbon show.

Evil Noah

Hey, I've never. done CBD or mushrooms, but there may have been a little bit of whiskey involved in this particular case.

Steven Julian

So it was fantastic. I thought you did great. I thought it was good.

Evil Noah

Obviously, even though it was a caricature of extremes, gut. A lot of that does come from actual stories I've heard. You know, I inherit projects here. And, you know, sometimes I inherit it from companies that you do hear advertised that are really just out to take as much money from inventors as they can. And at the end of the day, they deliver what their contract says, but it's not what an inventor needs. The inventor has basically nothing when they're done with that except a smaller bank account. Other times, you know, I've...

Had people come here from other seemingly legit engineering firms. And like I'm talking to a guy now that started with this engineering firm, engineering design, product development firm about a year and a half ago. And he's like, I'm $15,000 in. I just still don't have anything from these guys. And I went, you know, I kind of walked him through. the reasons for that is that, you know, he. showed me who they were and everything. I was like, here's why you don't have anything. I suspect. A, you're a very small client for them.

So you were on the very back burner. They probably got a very big contract with some big company, you know, like, you know, lots of big companies. Everybody knows who they are. And they didn't have time to work on your stuff.

Steven Julian

But they can still bill you.

Evil Noah

They can still bill you. And yeah, you've paid them $15,000, which seems like, which I'm sure is a lot of money for you. For them, that's a very small project. That's why you have no priority with them. And yeah, I see that kind of stuff all the time.

Steven Julian

Well, I think as people go through life on this universe or any universe, they recognize that when it comes to business, surround yourself with people who are doing business with you or for you. Are they simply trying to get paid? Or are they simply trying to, or are they actually trying to deliver something that they said they were going to deliver? Like just, just be caveat emptor, right? I mean, buyer beware, be aware of what you're signing up for.

Evil Noah

So we've gone from French to Latin.

Steven Julian

Oh man, I'm throwing, it's sick. It's thick. Wait till I do my German phrase at the end.

Evil Noah

You got any Romanian in there?

Steven Julian

I do not. Okay. I do not. I can do Klingon.

Evil Noah

Kabla. There you go. All right. Everyone, please forget that happened.

Steven Julian

Why? That's great. Okay.

Evil Noah

Well, it's fair. I am married already. I don't need to find a girlfriend. Now, if you go around talking Klingon in college, your odds are not great.

Steven Julian

You definitely do not get a girlfriend.

Evil Noah

No, no. You wouldn't. Yeah. My wife would not have been impressed.

Steven Julian

She still isn't. Oh, sorry. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. That was me. I was. I deserved it after having to interview people. That's evil Steven. That's right. That's evil Steven.

Evil Noah

So anyway, what you were just talking about before all these tangents, the way I look at that is ask yourself, is this person or this company, are they making money with me or are they making money off of me? And everybody's got to make money. So it's not bad that they, you know, I've. got to be paid. Everybody's got to be paid for what they do. It really comes down to really some of the questions about philosophy that Steven asked earlier, you know, what's their philosophy? Of working with you. And at this point in my career, you know, I tell people this all the time.

I don't need to finagle anyone to do a project. I have plenty to do and I'm looking for success stories. So if you come in and I don't see any path to a success story, I'm going to tell you the reasons why. Now, am I always right? Of course not. Sometimes we go down a path and for whatever reason, market's not right and it's not going to succeed. But if I know that up front. I'm going to tell you up front. And a lot of times I'll tell people that and they're like, you know, here's a business problem you have.

It's too expensive. It's too whatever. Half the people, I really appreciate that. And some of those will go fix those problems and they'll come back. Half the people get really mad at me because I'm not telling them what they. want to hear.

Steven Julian

So they go back to their parents and their friends.

Evil Noah

And then they go to one of these other firms. And they go to one of these other firms. They'll go find an engineer that will just work on whatever they tell them to work on.

Steven Julian

You know, we've said it many, many times over the years. And I do think we've. Maybe haven't said it in a little while. The reason Product Quick Start is the best, if not one of the best, and how you help inventors and entrepreneurs getting to the next reasonable step for the reasonable amount of money and time and helping them make the next best decision in their journey. And sometimes that...

Evil Noah

So if at the end of the day it's going to be this doesn't work, if it's going to be a no, should we continue down this path? We want to get to that no as early and as cheaply as possible.

Steven Julian

And if it's a yes. Then it's also, yes, and here are some of the next steps. Here are some reasonable ideas of what it will cost. But you're never trying to just part them from. their money for your yacht. And you have no yacht.

Evil Noah

Let's clarify that. I have no yacht. I have no boat of any sort.

Steven Julian

You have no floating device. You have floaties that you put on your own.

Evil Noah

I have a couple pool floats.

Steven Julian

There you go. Okay, good. Interesting. By the way, I like that whole evil Noah or evil Steven thing because it did kind of crop up and evil Steven just wants to talk about himself. Slightly annoying, good Steven finds ways to talk about himself but keeps the show on track as best as possible. It struck me, and that was a good last point that you made, but it struck me that after that little, after you came back and we just did a couple of little weird cultural references and side notes and talking about Klingon, I'm like, you know, people who are still listening, boy, they really like you.

They really like your message.

Evil Noah

They really like one of us. Either that or they're in the car and they don't want to have to reach for the skip button. But we appreciate you no matter why you're listening. Absolutely.

Steven Julian

If you're still here, that means you're in the drawing for a $5 Starbucks gift card from me.

Evil Noah

And let me actually say this about listeners. I've actually had increasingly over the past year, listeners have reached out and some of them to become clients. Some of them have just had simple questions about, hey, I listened to your podcast. I'm not ready to do this. But can you answer this question for me? I just want to say, I'm happy to do that. You know, if I can help you. Even if we never work together, if I can help you avoid a big mistake or go down the right path, reach out.

Steven Julian

You know what that means. We're closer to my second fantasy episode.

Evil Noah

I'm terrified. Yeah.

Steven Julian

Ask Noah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Evil Noah

Yeah. What's their first fantasy episode?

Steven Julian

We already did it. Goals and... Oh, okay. Yeah. Dear Diary. That's the episode. I remember the references to, Joni.

Evil Noah

So you're not talking about... Product Genius After Dark.

Steven Julian

No, and nothing with fans in the title or anything like that. Come on. What do you think of me? First of all, I mean.

Evil Noah

I think a lot of you.

Steven Julian

Thank you. And I. mean, seriously, there's a reason why I get paid a dollar anytime. anyone anywhere says, Steven Julian has a face for podcasting. So send that dollar to P.O. Box. Pueblo, Colorado. Remember those commercials where you could get stuff? Oh, man. And Sally Struthers, I'm sending off so I can get a certificate in whatever. We need more of that. Plumbing, HVAC, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. All right. We've come to the end of the show. We are at the end of the cultural references.

Evil Noah

Mercifully.

Steven Julian

Yeah. Noah, that was a great stuff. Evil Noah. So, oh, man, he's playing the music. So, for the intrepid producer, Jody Smith, and for Noah McNeely, make sure to go to productquickstart.com. Do the contact us. You can work with Noah. You can also just send him a simple question. He might not answer right away, but he will answer. And one day. Soon we may answer it on the show. So for those two wonderful gentlemen, this is your Slightly Annoying co-host Steven Julian saying we will catch you next time where you know where.

On this side of the universe, it's Product Genius.