Product Genius, the Podcast for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and Startups

Steven Julian: What the actual F? We’re going to talk about both Fs in tariffs. Noah and I are actually going to have a fight on the air, and we’re going to talk about the topic of tariffs without taking either political side. Sounds impossible? Well, it might be, but we do it. next on Product Genius. Do you want to be a successful inventor entrepreneur? Struggling to get your product from idea to market? Well, you’ve come to the right place. Welcome to Product Genius. The down-to-earth podcast that explores important topics about inventing and launching new products. Noah McNeely is your trusted guide. With more than 20 years of product launch experience, he’s here to help you on your journey to become a product genius. Let’s get started. Here’s your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian. Welcome to another award-winning edition of Product Genius. I just went for it. I was not pulling the pin on that. I’m going to see how long I could go. And I could have gone longer. That’s what she said. Okay, maybe we should start the show over. I don’t know. I am hopped up on pumpkin spice coffee that Noah hates. But with French. vanilla creamer, it’s very good. I am seated next to the intrepid producer, Jody. And Noah has his mouth agape.

Noah McNeely: Did you use the special creamer?

Steven Julian: I did. I did. Where’d you get it from? You got it on April 20th. I know that.

Noah McNeely: The supplier.

Steven Julian: It was wonderful. It was wonderful. I just went for it. You know what? We record these a few at a time. We had a great other recording. I don’t know if you’ve listened to it first or it’s about to come out. That’s all up to Jody. All I know is I said, I’ve got to bring the energy. I’ve got to ramp it up. I felt it and I went for it.

Noah McNeely: Hey, man, you do you.

Steven Julian: Thank you. And also because we’re going to talk about a topic that might make people want to just run to the exits. We’re going to tackle something. We’re going to talk something that’s political, it’s economical, and it is very, very important in the terms of product design and bringing products to market, right? Yeah. Sure. Great. I’ve got Noah so off his game.

Noah McNeely: I’m just recovering from that long opening. note still. It.

Steven Julian: was good.

Noah McNeely: It’s still ringing around in my head.

Steven Julian: You were leaning one way. Okay. I apologize.

Noah McNeely: Then I realized I was wearing headphones, so I couldn’t escape it even by leaning away from the microphone.

Steven Julian: Like it was coming from the microphone.

Noah McNeely: Exactly.

Steven Julian: So you were trying to avoid unpleasant and uncomfortable things. And we’re going to talk about an unpleasant and uncomfortable topic because we are in the midst, as we’re recording this in the middle of 2025, we’re in the midst of everybody’s talking about tariffs. Right. And your working title of this show was What the Actual F? So we don’t know which F in tariffs it is, if it’s the first or the second, or it’s all of a sudden added a third.

Noah McNeely: Well, I think it’s an F that bears repeating.

Steven Julian: Yeah, exactly. Whenever you are listening to this, we have no idea what the actual numbers are. We don’t know how many deals have been done or not done. We don’t know if it’s a year later and we’re still freaking out about it. But at the time of this recording, the numbers are changing almost daily. There were the United States. They. increased their tariffs almost across the board. They then increased others even more as retaliatory tariffs were announced. Then they pulled back. Then there were 30-day freezes, 60-day freezes, 90-day freezes. If I were to try and say what’s actually happening, I’d sound like a fool.

Noah McNeely: Right. It’s retaliatory. It’s preemptive strikes. It’s retaliating against something that never happened. Who knows?

Steven Julian: 10% on everyone, 20% on a few countries. It got up to 145% on China, 90% on Vietnam. 25% on Canada, Mexico, blah, blah, blah. There’s all kinds of uncertainty. Noah, in your world of dealing with your clients, what, if anything, has been talked about with tariffs?

Noah McNeely: Well, there was, I think most people know. most of my clients are small businesses, smaller companies. I do work with a couple of big companies and they’re less, I mean, everybody’s affected. They’re less concerned because they’ve got workarounds. But all the small to mid-sized companies, inventors, entrepreneurs, this is a really big deal. If you do manufacture overseas, which a lot of small companies do, and we can talk about that later in the program as to why, but even those that don’t, the concern, even those that do. produce here, the concern became, okay, is all the capacity going to dry up suddenly? And then now my factory, my supplier is going to tell me, I can’t get your product to you on time because I’ve got all this other work that I have to do now. So everybody was concerned.

Steven Julian: It is concerned. It still is. And I think one of the most important things I could do as the slightly annoying co-host is to say, I’d like to try and have you lay some ground rules about what we want to talk about. Because four minutes into the show, some people may be going, oh, tariffs, I don’t want to talk about this. They’re going to get political, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you and I talked before the show, and I think there’s some very important things to point out. First of all, It would be safe for me to say we are not on here to give any, any political view whatsoever, if at all. Okay. We simply want to talk about the topic of tariffs and how it affects the product market design world, bringing products to market. We are not here. to say who’s right and who’s wrong. We are, we do want to talk about. What might it look like if tariffs continue, if they get worse before they get better? What does it look like to bring more manufacturing to the United States? Yada, yada, yada. We are not making any political points. I think we don’t want to be overly simplistic about this either because it’s not a simple topic.

Noah McNeely: And I think it’s also fair to say that we don’t know what’s going to happen. And even the things that we’re going to throw out is, hey, here’s what it could look like. That’s just a theory at this point. You know, this is such a complex topic and tariffs are just one kind of cog in a very complex international wheel of intrigue and mystery. No, of things that affect each other.

Steven Julian: And the other thing, and I don’t know if this will actually come to fruition. I’ve said, and sometimes I say it as a joke, even though it’s a true statement, I am an independent financial advisor. I watch the stock market. I pay attention to the economy overall. And I look at companies. and their valuations and things like that. The joke is that I can’t say my firm name. I can’t give my website because I don’t have it approved by compliance. That rule is I can’t. I’m not supposed to say anything about particular stocks that could be perceived as advice.

Noah McNeely: Isn’t it absolutely always right, financialadvice.com? No.

Steven Julian: No, that’s not it at all. And it’s not run by AI. And that’s how AI is going to kill us all is have people make dumb investments. Anyway, I can talk about economy. I can talk. And so I may. Interject a couple economic points in the middle of it. And so we’ll just we’re kind of get we. you had some great questions and some great things around this topic of tariffs that we want to just kind of tackle. I do want to start with. anyone who’s listening to the show for any amount of time knows that a lot of people, a lot of products, either parts of it or completely get made in countries like China. And China is one of the leading providers of product design or product manufacturing, I guess would be.

Noah McNeely: And when we say countries like China, we pretty much mean China. Okay.

Steven Julian: So one of the things that we’re in the middle of right now is in the middle of this whole thing is, okay, well, if the trade with China slows or stops for any period of time, what can we do? What can a product provider do?

Noah McNeely: I don’t know.

Steven Julian: Are there any? Yeah, we don’t know what the alternatives are, right?

Noah McNeely: So let me talk about how some of my clients handled this recent situation where it suddenly went to 145%. Now it’s dropped back down to 30% for 90 days. And who knows what it’s going to look like 90 days from now. Maybe it’ll be 5,000%. Maybe it’ll be 0% most likely.

Steven Julian: Somewhere in between.

Noah McNeely: If I had to guess, it’s going to stay in the 30% range. But we’ll see because there are a lot of reasons why. The U.S. and Chinese economies are kind of coupled, good, bad, or indifferent, whether you like it, don’t like it. It is the reality of the situation. But in any event, some of my clients kind of went through a period of panic and didn’t know what to do. They’re like, you know, I’ve got all this product that’s already in production. I’ve got stuff in China right now. that’s, you know, do I even have them ship it? So some clients just put everything on pause, which is actually in some ways the best advice I could give them is like, I don’t think this is this. 145% is permanent, which it turned out not to be. Let’s just see what happens. Unless you’ve absolutely got to have product in your hand tomorrow, put everything on pause. Let’s take a break. Even my clients that were quoting you things, I was like, let’s not quote anything right now because we don’t know how accurate those quotes are going to be because on the other side of the ocean, the Chinese factories are freaking out too because they don’t know, do I need to? To undercut my quotes, to get any business I can, do I overquote? So anything we get right now is not going to be the long-term numbers.

Steven Julian: We have talked about this on past shows, but it’s been a while. And given what’s happening right now in tariffs, I think it’s very important to ask. you this question. Why is China, why has it been so attractive for the last few years especially, but for a while now? As a manufacturing location for inventors, startups, and small companies.

Noah McNeely: So without going into the really long history, China started becoming an industrial manufacturing power back after Nixon kind of opened it up, starting in the 70s. And most of the stuff that came out of China, 70s, 80s, really 90s, was really considered poor quality. Over time, the quality of their factories improved dramatically. In a lot of industries, frankly, they have quality factories that outdo a lot of U.S. factories for what I call contract manufacturing, which is what inventor entrepreneurs and small companies use. Those are people that do not own their own factories or do not own a share of the factory. Now, if you go to a company like… You know, Procter & Gamble or Black & Decker or whatever. You may own a factory in China, in the U.S. or wherever that you control it. You control the costs. You don’t have to worry about a lot of the things that we’re talking about here. You do have to worry about. tariffs if you have a factory that you own in China that you’re importing stuff from, but you have a lot more flexibility because you’re making so much stuff versus a startup that may make 5,000 units in an order, and they do that twice a year. Maybe that’s all they’re doing. They don’t have a lot of clout or a lot of buying power that they can use with either domestic factories, which tend to look for much bigger, more profitable clients, or with factories that are in other parts of the world, like Mexico, which has great factories, but a lot of that capacity is gobbled up by the bigger Customers that really import a massive amount of product from Mexico. So you’re kind of stuck as an inventor entrepreneur. You can try to create your own factory, which is very expensive. You can do that domestically. You can go to a domestic manufacturer and there are some, don’t get me wrong, they do exist, but they tend to be more expensive. Oftentimes as a startup, you’re more of a nuisance to them than anything else because you’re not doing enough to turn their dial, their profit dial. So they end up giving you a very high price. Sometimes they give you what I call the go-away price. Now, I’m saying that understanding full well. Someone out there owns a factory is going to listen to this and say, that’s not me. I would love to talk to any inventor. Please reach out to me. If that’s you, I want to talk to you because I’ve got people I would connect you with. But back to your question, what I tell people is if I go to China, and I’ve been, I can throw a rock in the air and I’m going to hit a factory. It’s going to hit a factory in some parts of China. So there’s a lot of capacity. And those are factories that range from the really small, you know, like basically what I would call garage factories, which are about the size of the- Of the lair?

Steven Julian: Of the lair.

Noah McNeely: And they may have six or seven employees. And you’re like, that sounds terrible. Why would I want to make my stuff there? But that’s an ideal factory for certain types of things. All the way up to factories. I’ve been in. factories that have two, three, and 4,000 employees. And that’s an ideal factory for certain things. Then there’s everything in the middle. There’s so much different options, so many different levels of capacity that it’s much easier to build that supply chain for a startup. Even if they have a product that’s got plastic and metal and rubber and all sorts of stuff in it, I can find a factory or multiple factories that can do all of that for them.

Steven Julian: And the reason why it’s been so attractive in China for so long, there’s a lot of reasons. Labor costs less, even though the labor costs have grown as the middle class has grown and that, it’s still cheaper.

Noah McNeely: Regulation—But that’s becoming the lesser reason. I’ll come back to that.

Steven Julian: Regulation of government intervention, the number of hoops you have to jump through to get a building built, it’s totally different in China than it is here in the United States. It’s almost like China is where the United States was when every major town had a major factory. Or more that, you know, my dad grew up right outside of Pittsburgh, that steel town, you know, all. that kind of, you know, there were steel mills all over Western PA. So there’s a little bit of China has figured out that that’s a major way for them to put their people to work.

Noah McNeely: In that sort of same level of development, I guess is the right way to say it. I would say you have a much larger percentage of the population that is interested and eager to work in a factory environment than you do in the United States. And listen, there are a lot of great factory workers in the United States. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that.

Steven Julian: There’s more in China.

Noah McNeely: It’s just on a percentage level, more people in China grow up aspiring to work in factories than… Then they do here in the United States.

Steven Julian: I think you said that perfectly. I think you said that fairly and perfectly and truthfully. Yes.

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Steven Julian: So let’s talk about growing manufacturing in the United States, which is one of the publicly stated reasons for these tariffs. We don’t want to get into the politics of that. I’ve got my own thoughts and I’m not going to share them publicly.

Noah McNeely: Let me jump back just a second to the thing I teased about answering just a second ago. It’s like, it’s not… Don’t be offended. I’m sorry. It’s my fault. It’s my brain jumps around like popcorn in the microwave.

Steven Julian: I was jumping. I was trying to jump ahead and I did it.

Noah McNeely: I think he saw my… I’ve never seen you look so offended. Okay. So I’m going to go back one step and I apologize for interrupting your train there. I suggested that, you know, the cost of labor is not really the primary driver. It is a driver. However, for me, it’s really… The more important driver is capacity across a wide array of processes and project sizes. So in China, and starting in a few other countries, but in China, I can find a factory that can do a very small project. eagerly, willingly, profitably. That’s very hard to do in the U.S. and in most other countries. Can I find a factory that can do it? Yes. Can I find a factory that will do it eagerly and inexpensively and profitably? Probably not. So yeah, I can get it made here, but it’s going to cost three, four times as much. Not because they’re trying to take advantage of you, but just because it’s a very different business model. If you’re going in, you’re going to make $80,000 of something, that’s much more feasible to do in the U.S. or in Europe or wherever. Okay. Now, I’m going to let you get me back on track.

Steven Julian: That’s right. I had not forgotten about that labor cost thing, and we may even touch on that again. So if one of the stated goals of this whole tariff scenario is to bring more manufacturing, to continue to grow manufacturing, then let me, again, in the context of inventors and startups, What could manufacturing look like? In your opinion, and this is 100% your opinion and your dream, what could or should manufacturing look like in the United States to support more inventors and? startups?

Noah McNeely: So I’m going to answer that question in two different ways. One, I’m going to say, what should it look like? And I would argue… There are certain types of products where it really doesn’t make sense for us to even want to manufacture here. These are going to be lower value commodity level products. Why do we want to corner the market on making plastic coat hangers here? I don’t think we do. But if I just go back a step and accept the premise of the question that we want to manufacture everything here.

Steven Julian: No, that’s not what I said.

Noah McNeely: I know it’s not, but there’s some people who may be thinking that way. So I’m going to approach the answer from that perspective that we want to just manufacture everything. Okay. But I don’t agree that we do. And in fact, my line of what we do want to manufacture here is significantly higher than the plastic coat hanger example I gave. It goes all the way to more commodity products like sippy cups or baseline, you know. Yes, you can make a very expensive sippy cup. that’s, you know, bespoke and all that. That’s different. That’s not what I’m talking about. Okay. Stop rambling, Noah. Stop rambling.

Steven Julian: I’m just letting it go. All right.

Noah McNeely: Thank you. Just give me enough rope. Okay. So if I accept the premise that we want to manufacture everything here for the sake of this argument, what we really have to do is seek to replicate a lot of what China has done, either intentionally or they backed into or it just sort out. Organically grew and that is. we need to have an infrastructure that will support small businesses, startups, which we really don’t have that right now on a manufacturing level. We certainly have it for more profitable things like medical device where there’s a ton of margin, that infrastructure exists. Funded programs that are ready to right out the bat, right off the bat, make a hundred thousand or something, that infrastructure exists. Or the startup, the small business that’s just trying to break into the market that needs to make $3,000 of something, $5,000 of something, $1,000 of something to start their business on Amazon or wherever, that infrastructure really does not exist for most items. Now, there are exceptions.

Steven Julian: Give us, give the listener just. a couple of examples because I’m sure there’s $5,000 of what an infrastructure looks like that would support that type of. Startup and run of 3,000, 5,000.

Noah McNeely: So to me, that infrastructure looks like a collection of small to mid-sized contract manufacturers that touch a lot of different processes. So it’s very rare to find a product that’s just one material. I gave the plastic coat hanger example. Sure, that’s easy because You have a mold and then you just start pumping out plastic coat hangers. But usually for most products or for a lot of products that I work on, you have more complexity. So you have a metal component. You may have a circuit board. You may have plastic components. You may have a rubber seal or gasket or whatever type of component. And all that has to go together. So it doesn’t do you any good to just have a plastics factory if you don’t have all those other bits and pieces. So what we really need is an infrastructure that can supply all these elements. And put it all together. Now in China, oftentimes the way that works is you’ll have a factory that’s got all. those different processes under one roof. Maybe they’re missing one element, but they know a guy down the street that does that, you know, so they still kind of bring it in-house. So it’s very easy. In China and in some other countries, I can send out three emails and I’ll get back three complete quotes on a full product production. In the U.S., I have to go find a plastics factory. Or three or five. I have to go find a metal working factory. I have to go find a rubber casting factory. I’ve got to go find an assembler. And it’s just a much more complex supply chain to put together. And that gets very expensive.

Steven Julian: Is there anything the government or is there anything regulation-wise that could be loosened? Because I do believe in our own economy. Co-opetition is a real thing. So I don’t think it’s the manufacturers or the factories going, I don’t want to work with that steel factory up in Pennsylvania. I want to do, you know, we don’t care about them. Is it their lack of communication? Is it their lack of learning how to partner together? Or is there something else? you know about that. you see that go, this is happening in China. that’s not happening here?

Noah McNeely: So I think there are a lot of governments here, the federal government, of course, all the way down to state, local, county governments that do have an interest in growing jobs and in growing businesses in their jurisdictions. What I always see is a huge focus on really big businesses. So like here in Georgia, there’s always an effort to let’s get, which they did years ago, let’s woo NCR to move their headquarters here. Let’s woo this company. That’s all great. I don’t have anything, I don’t have any problem with that. What that does not do, however, is create new businesses that can grow into big businesses. You can’t have a big business unless you start with a small business. And that’s what I think. A lot of these governments miss out on is they don’t have any focus on. how do we incubate early businesses, understanding that some of them are going to fail so that we get that. Maybe it’s one out of 10 that becomes a big employer for that state. But if you do it right, I actually think that’ll generate more jobs than luring a big company here. Because when you do that, you’re just taking those jobs from a different state anyway. It’s not helping the country as a whole.

Steven Julian: One of the past questions, I thought, you know, I think the American economy has certain sectors, especially in the tech sector, we’re very good at incubation of thought business.

Noah McNeely: Software.

Steven Julian: Yeah. But how can we incubate more manufacturing? How can we be a manufacturing incubator or a group of manufacturing incubators that work together to do small orders that become larger orders? I think that’s something to think about. This might be a very unfair question, and if it is, you will sternly correct me and say, boy, you gave me that look before, now I’m going to give you a look. Can you think of anything that a government, state, county, local, city, federal, a practical step or two, which saying a government taking a practical step, I realize that’s an oxymoron to a lot of people, not you. But can you think of anything that the government could do, a concrete step? Boy, if a local government would do this, this, or this, one of those might work to help more incubation and more manufacturing for startups.

Noah McNeely: Yes. I don’t work in government, so I don’t understand what the mechanics behind making these things happen would be. But I would see things along the lines of building. Super incubators. So, you know, they’re incubators. A lot of times, sometimes they are government funded. that, you know, they go in as a small business and they’ll help you put your finances together and figure out how to do all the, all the stuff small businesses need to learn how to do. That’s all great. And you get a lot of, you know, dog grooming businesses out of that. And you get a lot of forest out of that and that all of which we need. Correct. You don’t get a lot of manufacturing business. You don’t get a lot of new product businesses out of those things. You do get software businesses. There are incubators that focus on software. That’s a whole different thing. People like investing in software because there’s very little upfront capital and, you know, there’s a whole reason for that. But that doesn’t help us solve the move. manufacturing to the U.S. problem. So what I would view a super incubator as, or a manufacturing incubator, it’s not just a building with some advisors. Maybe it’s an entire small technology park where you’ve got… That plastics motor, you’ve got that rubber caster, you’ve got that PCB manufacturer, you’ve got all these sheet metal work. You’ve got all this in an accessible way. Maybe it’s not all in one part, maybe it’s spread around the city. It doesn’t matter, just so long as it’s all available. And the problem is, I think the government’s going to look at that as, okay, that’s going to be expensive. None of these businesses are going to be profitable for three years. You’re right. None of these businesses are going to be profitable for a period of years. It is a longer-term investment. But you’re not going to get to a bigger, broader manufacturing base that meets the needs of the 21st century without that long-term investment. It’s not going to be like flipping a switch like it can be with software. It just takes time. And this small molder, it’s going to take them a while and a lot. of clients to get to the point where they’re out of the red into the black. And the companies that they support, it’s going to take them a while to get out of the red and black as well. But if governments are serious about building a manufacturing base, they’ve got to find a way to support that transition.

Steven Julian: I’m going to give an answer that is incredibly impractical, but it clearly would work. Because you would have to look at the history of the last 50 years and you would have to start with the premise and the argument that, The government has not helped build manufacturing very much, if at all, in this country.

Noah McNeely: I agree for small manufacturing. Yes. I mean, there’s certainly a big industry that’s already there. Correct. They will support that. Correct. It’s getting it to there. Correct. Is the problem.

Steven Julian: So here’s what I would say. If you wanted to do that, I think you raise a good point. You have to be longer term than, hey, this is going to, in a tech incubator or a thought business incubator, you get one good idea and, oh, look at what we generated. It’s. going to take time. But here’s what I would say. The government assistance needs to be as unhindered as possible. Because one thing about government assistance is the 97 pounds of paperwork you have to fill out to get a light bulb. And so they have to allow themselves to possibly only help with It’s stimulus. or we’re getting a tax break. We’re offering the tax break and we’re taking our hands off. And the blood is not on our hands. All we’re doing is trying to spur and get out of the way because the more government gets in the way, the more they slow things down.

Noah McNeely: Simply giving these new businesses a five-year waiver on regulations and maybe a five-year waiver on taxes to get them to the point where they can be profitable. That alone might be sufficient. Correct. And what you’d find after that, of course, they start following the regulations when they get to a certain size, but you’d find that there’s much more tax revenue down the road.

Steven Julian: Because they’re still around.

Noah McNeely: And you’re giving up in those five years of incubation.

Steven Julian: Absolutely. So let’s pivot to the private sector.

Noah McNeely: Oh. Hold on.

Steven Julian: I. jumped the gun again.

Noah McNeely: We’re not going to talk politics, but philosophically, I think this actually, this may be a challenge. Okay. Democratic Republic, that’s the best kind of government in the world. Don’t get me wrong, but this may be a challenge. Go ahead. This may be a challenge that representative republics innately have because our politicians have to be rehired, revoted in every couple of years.

Steven Julian: They don’t have to, but they want to.

Noah McNeely: They want to. So it’s hard to have that long-term strategy stick. So the question then becomes, you know, who does that? That’s why I would look kind of more at local governments and city councils, things like that might be a better fit for this. I’m not a fan of authoritarianism, but that’s almost an advantage. more authoritarian governments do have is they can have that plan. And I think you see that maybe in China. I don’t think it was a plan. I think a lot of it just sort of happened in terms of the small manufacturing, et cetera, there. That is an advantage certain other types of political systems have. And I don’t advocate any of those. Ours is still. the best political system in the world.

Steven Julian: So Noah is not advocating for an authoritarian system.

Noah McNeely: I don’t want to get on any lists. Right.

Steven Julian: And by the way, when you’re under an authoritarian government like they have been in China, granted that has dipped their toe in capitalist waters, but it’s still an authoritarian government. You don’t have as many choices as you’re growing up. That’s another part of it, too. Which, by the way, there’s a skills gap. There’s a trade gap.

Noah McNeely: There’s an innovation gap when you do that. So there’s a drawback to that as well. Correct.

Steven Julian: And so therefore, why not?

Noah McNeely: No one innovates as well as we do in the United States.

Steven Julian: Well, and I was thinking this. I’ll say one last thing about government before moving on to the private sector. So right now, one of the big advertising slogans of the U.S. military is build submarines. Buildsubmarines.com. And so, hey, come in and you’ll learn tech and you’ll do this and you’ll build submarines. Can’t the government say, we’re going to build products, build stuff in the USA? And the idea is from high school, you’re going to go learn a trade. You’re going to go learn skills in a factory that can apply to other jobs or if nothing else, get good pay. You’re going to help build entrepreneurial products.

Noah McNeely: Well, I think there’s a very slow and hopefully persistent transition of thought among some leaders that Economic security is national security. I think you start to see that working its way into some discussions and articles about, okay, national security about having all these submarines and et cetera, that’s all great, but you have to be able to afford to buy the submarines. And to do that, you have to have a very large… And to do that, you have to have a very successful industry. And to do that, you’ve got to keep growing new industries. So hopefully that’s going to work its way all the way down to, and to do that, we have to get small businesses started so they can grow into big businesses.

Steven Julian: And not making a political statement, but that comment was made in the early 80s in various forms, and it’s what ended the Cold

Steven Julian: Greetings and salutations. Steven Julian: I am your slightly annoying host, Steven Julian. Steven Julian: Welcome to a new edition of Product Genius. Steven Julian: This time… Without Tiffany Crumans, but what we do have is the fantastic Noah McNeely. Steven Julian: Noah, welcome back to the show. Noah McNeely: Yeah, it’s good to be back. Noah McNeely: I feel like it’s been an entire pandemic ago. Steven Julian: Almost. Steven Julian: It’s been at least, it’s been a year, but it does kind of feel like a whole pandemic ago. Steven Julian: So, Product Genius, this might sound a little bit different. Steven Julian: There are some differences. Steven Julian: Why don’t? Steven Julian: we cover all that stuff up front?

Steven Julian: Broadcasting this show almost live from the Plush Palatial Studios that is the worldwide headquarters of Product Quick Start. Steven Julian: Tell everybody about your new digs. Noah McNeely: Yes, so Product Quick Start, we were fortunate enough to move into a new facility, well, new to us facility that we’re renovating in what they call the Depot District of Lawrenceville, Georgia, which is this… Exciting little area where we have some breweries and we have a distillery going in. Noah McNeely: that I think is going to make tequila and I try to remain sober during the day when I’m working here. Steven Julian: Especially when you’re doing the show. Steven Julian: Well, maybe not as much when you do that. Noah McNeely: Probably more important that I remain sober when using the power equipment in the back. Steven Julian: Amen. Steven Julian: The other thing we want to talk about for those people who are coming upon this episode and have listened to past episodes. Steven Julian: In some respects, we’re the same, but in some respects, there are some differences. Steven Julian: This show was always known as Product Genius with Tiffany Krumans. Steven Julian: Tiffany is still with us, but she’s not with us in the studio. Steven Julian: So, Noah, I ask. Steven Julian: you, where in the world is Tiffany Krumans? Noah McNeely: Well, anyone that has listened to more recent shows probably knows Tiffany has a lot of ideas for businesses, and she also has… New children in her life, and she stays very, very busy. Noah McNeely: Her latest company is called Opu Probiotics, and it’s a fabulous product. Noah McNeely: I recommend you try it. Noah McNeely: I particularly like the mocha mint flavor. Noah McNeely: But anyway, we believe that Tiffany is scouring the world looking for the finest ingredients she can for that particular product. Noah McNeely: So you might find her in the Himalayas or the Amazon. Noah McNeely: Probably wearing a baby and a baby Bjorn and with three other kids following her around. Steven Julian: And everybody can go to opuprobiotics.com, opuprobiotics.com, and see all the latest things that Tiffany is doing with that product. Steven Julian: And therefore, she was the creator of Product Genius originally, and you were a fantastic partner and sponsor of the show and would come on and talk about… Developing products through your business, productquickstart.com. Steven Julian: And when Tiffany really launched Opu, she told all of us, Jody Smith, the producer of the show, and myself as the slightly annoying host, hey, I’m going to take a little. Steven Julian: bit of time off. Steven Julian: I got to launch this new business. Steven Julian: And then in the meantime, let me just fast forward a little bit. Steven Julian: And I don’t know how much behind the scenes and unplugged you want to get. Steven Julian: Why are you sitting across the table from me and why are you now kind of leading this ship that Tiffany built up to this point? Noah McNeely: Well, first, we’re going to hope that the Shipley is led in a good direction and not running aground. Steven Julian: Not yet, at least. Steven Julian: We’re five minutes in. Steven Julian: It’s so far so good. Noah McNeely: So, yeah, we’re doing great at the moment. Noah McNeely: Well, I always enjoyed doing the show. Noah McNeely: I mean, I had a lot of fun with you guys and it really hits one of my passions, which… I like talking about this stuff. Noah McNeely: I do what I love. Noah McNeely: I enjoy explaining it to people. Noah McNeely: I think the show is a good way to do that. Noah McNeely: I’ve actually met a number of people through the show. Noah McNeely: Those are all great conversations. Noah McNeely: My hope is as we move forward, Product Genius will be a show that’s useful for inventors, of course. Noah McNeely: Really, I think we’re going to. Noah McNeely: talk about things that relate to all entrepreneurs or most entrepreneurs. Noah McNeely: Even to people that work for bigger companies that want to think more like entrepreneurs. Steven Julian: So here we are after more than a year off. Steven Julian: We’re doing a new show. Steven Julian: Noah McNeely is sitting across the table from me. Steven Julian: Jody Smith from JodySmith.com is still our producer. Steven Julian: I’m still the slightly annoying host. Steven Julian: And here we are still talking about product development. Steven Julian: We’re going to talk about inventing. Steven Julian: And today we’re talking about help. Steven Julian: I’ve got too many ideas. Steven Julian: Which is definitely true of this show after not doing it for a year. Steven Julian: And people who are doing product development and kind of trying to bring their product to market, as they’re bringing one product to market, they have all these other ideas. Steven Julian: That’s the entrepreneurial, that’s the inventor. Steven Julian: There’s a lot of people listening who, number one, are going, okay, yeah, they’re talking about something I need to talk about. Steven Julian: And when you’re listening to this, you might also be thinking, Ooh, I know someone else that needs to hear this. Steven Julian: So listen to this one, invite them to hear the show because we’re going to be talking. Steven Julian: about, I got too many ideas. Steven Julian: So the title of the show, obviously I gave a little bit of a inkling of it.

Steven Julian: You are guilty of this just like anybody else, right? Noah McNeely: Oh, absolutely. Noah McNeely: In fact, the fact that I’m doing this podcast while writing a business and… Engaging in various other hobbies may be an example of where I’m guilty of this, but I’m trying to balance it well. Noah McNeely: And we thought this would be a really good topic for the first show because Tiffany is actually a great example of doing this well. Noah McNeely: She realized at some point that she had too many different things going on. Noah McNeely: So to be successful, she had to push some of them to the back, and that’s why. Noah McNeely: That’s why we’re here. Steven Julian: That’s why she’s out finding those great products or finding those great ingredients to go into the mint mocha. Noah McNeely: That’s why she’s in the Amazon today. Noah McNeely: Exactly. Noah McNeely: So, you know, this is a problem that doesn’t just affect inventors and entrepreneurs. Noah McNeely: It actually affects big companies as well. Noah McNeely: And back when I did a lot of big company work, this was a topic that would come up. Noah McNeely: The big. Noah McNeely: scary corporate name for this is portfolio management. Noah McNeely: As an inventor entrepreneur, you never need to use that phrase again, probably. Noah McNeely: But the idea is even big companies, they have so many things that they want to do or would love to do, but they can’t do them all. Noah McNeely: In a big company, like a Fortune 500 company, I almost said some names there, but I don’t want to be sued or anything by any of my clients from years ago. Noah McNeely: In a big company, you have entire teams of people in many cases. Noah McNeely: Their whole job is to manage and really to do the portfolio management role. Noah McNeely: They’ll have roadmaps of products that the company is going to develop for five, ten years out in some cases, and they have to prioritize those. Steven Julian: So let’s talk about the person who’s listening to this podcast who’s trying to bring one or a couple of products to market or are trying to build their business. Steven Julian: Go from idea to prototype to development.

Steven Julian: When you say, help, I’ve got too many ideas, can that be true of one product? Noah McNeely: It can be. Noah McNeely: It can be true of one product or it can. Noah McNeely: also just be the nature of the individual. Noah McNeely: So I’ve met people that clients have come in and they get really excited about their product. Noah McNeely: We go through that. Noah McNeely: And then a lot of times on the way out the door, they’re like, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Noah McNeely: I’ve got seven more I’m working on. Noah McNeely: We’re going to talk about them next time. Noah McNeely: And I think they tell me that to get me more excited about working with them, but that’s really often a red flag. Noah McNeely: So on the next meeting, you’re at the next meeting, I usually have to tamp that down a little bit and say, you know, look, that’s great. Noah McNeely: I love all these ideas, but let’s get one on the market first. Noah McNeely: And I think that can be a tough thing for entrepreneurs, even myself, because I have… I have so many things I want to accomplish and want to do, but it’s easy to want to spend all the time in the visionary stage. Noah McNeely: Hey, this is going to be fun. Noah McNeely: I’m going to spend all day thinking about this idea and jotting out what’s it going to be like when. Noah McNeely: I’m done. Noah McNeely: But the problem is there’s a lot of things that have to happen between now and achieving that vision. Steven Julian: And the ideas is the sexy part. Steven Julian: The ideas is the everybody’s. Steven Julian: Had at least one or two ideas. Steven Julian: I actually, I still don’t know why at times I’m the slightly annoying host of the show because I’ve had very few ideas of products. Steven Julian: I’ve never tried to develop anything, but I would relate it. Steven Julian: I, I love the world of comedy and I love listening to comedians, especially them talking about doing jokes. Steven Julian: And it’s one thing to have, Hey, Seinfeld had a book called, is this anything you start with an idea? Steven Julian: Hey, is this anything? Steven Julian: Is this potentially funny? Steven Julian: But from that point to getting it to where it’s a tight bit to be done on stage, there’s this huge, there’s a lot of work that goes in. Steven Julian: So you just mentioned it’s easy to do the ideas. Steven Julian: I got seven more, but they got all this work they got to do to just to get that one. Steven Julian: But I want to drill down and I want to kind of push back and ask even that. Steven Julian: person who’s on that one, I’ve got too many ideas. Steven Julian: Do they get sidetracked with too many things even in that one single idea? Steven Julian: That they’re bringing to market? Noah McNeely: Yeah, that can happen too.

Noah McNeely: I think we may have talked about this a long time ago, but there’s a concept I call minimum viable product or early viable product. Steven Julian: I remember that. Noah McNeely: Yes, it’s a classic. Noah McNeely: You should check it out. Noah McNeely: But the issue there is sometimes maybe it is just one product, but they have all these ideas for that one product. Noah McNeely: Oh, I want it to do this. Noah McNeely: I want it to do that. Noah McNeely: I want it to be Wi-Fi and I want it to levitate and I want it to glow in the dark. Noah McNeely: Sir, it’s a doorknob. Noah McNeely: It doesn’t need to necessarily do all that. Noah McNeely: Those are all great. Noah McNeely: Let’s get one on the market. Noah McNeely: because all that stuff you just talked about, that’s a two-year development program. Noah McNeely: If we just do your basic product, which is already cool and already different than anything out there, you can be on the market in six months. Noah McNeely: You can generate revenue. Noah McNeely: You’ve got a successful business at that. Noah McNeely: point. Noah McNeely: And more importantly, you’ve got money that you can now spend on Gen 2 and Gen 3 and Gen 4. Noah McNeely: But if we start down the path of developing, The super mega colossal product now, you’re never going to get there. Steven Julian: And we titled this show again, Help, but I think probably more often than not your job as the product development guru, as the genius who helps people bring their product to market, you have to tell them you really should be saying, Help, I have too many ideas in this super amazing, stupendous product. Steven Julian: Very rarely do they verbalize that. Steven Julian: You’re helping them verbalize. Noah McNeely: Right. Noah McNeely: Well, sometimes I have to help people realize it is a problem because, like I said, a lot of visionary people and a lot of entrepreneurs, like myself, we do tend to love that visionary phase. Noah McNeely: And we think that’s the most important thing. Noah McNeely: It’s not. Noah McNeely: It’s actually one of the least important and easiest parts of having a successful business.

Noah McNeely: So think about it this way. Noah McNeely: Think about all the little boys who dream about winning a Super Bowl as the quarterback. Noah McNeely: Now, you can’t just keep dreaming about winning a. Super Bowl. Noah McNeely: That’s great. Noah McNeely: That’s a wonderful vision. Noah McNeely: But if you don’t start exercising and training and learning the game, you’ll never play on a team, much less get to the Super Bowl. Steven Julian: So it’s a difference between being a Super Bowl quarterback and being Uncle Rico sitting on the front step saying, if Coach had put me in that game, we would have won the state that year. Noah McNeely: That’s exactly right. Noah McNeely: And there are no time machines that will get you back there. Steven Julian: Exactly. Steven Julian: So portfolio management, to use the term of the Fortune 500 companies, is really them kind of categorizing or siloing or insert other corporate term here. Steven Julian: But really, it’s checking boxes. Steven Julian: It’s laying it out in steps.

Steven Julian: Is that something that you, as the person with Product Quick Start, is trying to help people say, okay, here are the 17 steps that we’re going to have to take? Steven Julian: Or is it just getting them focused on creating the 17 steps? Steven Julian: Kind of talk through that process. Steven Julian: Someone’s got an idea, and then someone starts to spiral into too many ideas. Steven Julian: The portfolio management that you do, not for the Fortune 500, but for the individual. Steven Julian: entrepreneur and inventor, what do you try to bring to the table? Noah McNeely: Yeah, so it’s really launch your product in 375 easy steps. Noah McNeely: No, it’s not. Noah McNeely: There’s really only two questions. Steven Julian: I thought it was 367 steps. Noah McNeely: We revised it last year. Noah McNeely: Oh, okay. Noah McNeely: So there’s really only two. Noah McNeely: Two questions that I ask people to consider when they’re trying to prioritize the features of their product or which product to develop or which product to develop when. Noah McNeely: And with the assumption that inventor entrepreneurs, you probably don’t have five people or 20 people on a team that you’re paying to do all the analysis. Noah McNeely: And yeah, you go to a really big company and they’re going to ask a lot more than these two questions. Noah McNeely: At least they’re going to ask a lot more versions of these two questions. Noah McNeely: But the two questions I tell people to consider is, number one, what can I get to the market with my resources? Noah McNeely: And of course, I can help them try to figure that out. Noah McNeely: This is how much it’s going to take to develop this product, to make the tooling for it, to produce it. Noah McNeely: So we have to be. Noah McNeely: realistic about what resources you have to actually get that to the market. Noah McNeely: And that may mean you can’t launch five at a time. Noah McNeely: Now, I’ve had some clients that are just independently wealthy, and yeah, they can do it. Noah McNeely: They have the resources for that. Noah McNeely: It can still be a bad idea in those cases because a resource that people often overlook is their own time, their own focus, their own ability to strategize and think about their business. Noah McNeely: So the second question is, what can I sell? Noah McNeely: You know, what will I be able to sell? Noah McNeely: So, yeah, this is a great idea. Noah McNeely: I have the funds to develop it. Noah McNeely: I have the resources to develop it. Noah McNeely: But is there a market for it? Noah McNeely: And is it a market that I understand well enough to actually sell? Noah McNeely: And the answer to either of those questions is no. Noah McNeely: Then that’s probably not the product you should develop first. Noah McNeely: You need to focus on the product or the collection of features in your product. Noah McNeely: that both of those answers are yes. Steven Julian: And I know we’ve talked about variations of those questions over past episodes. Steven Julian: Encourage everybody to go back and. Steven Julian: listen to Noah’s past episodes on Product Genius. Noah McNeely: Product Genius is brought to you by Opu Probiotics. Noah McNeely: Pre and probiotics you can pour directly on your tongue in delicious mint and mocha flavors. Steven Julian: But the taste is just the beginning. Noah McNeely: With Opu, you can see improved digestive function, boosted immune system, easier weight management, improved mental health, and much more. Noah McNeely: Try today at GetOpu.com. Steven Julian: That’s GetOpu.com. Steven Julian: Let me focus in on the second question. Steven Julian: first, because I think… The typical inventor entrepreneur who sits down with you, especially with their first idea, and you ask them that question, you know, what can I sell? Steven Julian: Can this sell? Steven Julian: Their answer, bar none, is going to be, well, of course this is going to sell. Steven Julian: It’s a fantastic idea. Steven Julian: I came up with this. Steven Julian: It came in a bolt of lightning. Steven Julian: Everybody who brings you any idea is going to tell you, well, of course it’s going to sell. Steven Julian: It’s fantastic. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I’ve heard variations of, well, why wouldn’t you buy this if you could buy it? Noah McNeely: I’ve probably heard a hundred variations of that throughout the course of my career.

Steven Julian: You’re a communist pig if you don’t buy this, of course. Steven Julian: This is great. Steven Julian: Sorry, that was my insertion, not Noah’s. Steven Julian: My apologies. Noah McNeely: Yeah, so we’re going to remain politically apolitical here as best we can. Noah McNeely: Uh, yeah. Noah McNeely: So a lot of, um, a lot of inventor entrepreneurs, they’re so enamored by their idea. Noah McNeely: They just can’t imagine it not being successful. Noah McNeely: And then they’re like, well, as soon as people see this, they’re going to want it. Noah McNeely: That may be true. Noah McNeely: And that, that in some ways that for most people, that probably is true. Noah McNeely: The question becomes, how do you reach those people? Noah McNeely: And that’s also part of how do you sell it? Noah McNeely: Can you sell it? Noah McNeely: Uh, so if you’ve got a, it’s a product that, oh, everyone would use it. Noah McNeely: Well, that’s almost the worst kind of product for an inventor because. Noah McNeely: You don’t have the marketing budget to reach everybody. Noah McNeely: If it’s more focused, like, well, people that have teenage girls that want to learn how to play golf, you can reach that market a lot easier and in a more forceful way. Noah McNeely: So that’s also part of, you know, what’s it going to take to sell this? Noah McNeely: Not necessarily even, do I have the sales? Noah McNeely: skills? Noah McNeely: You can always hire someone to do that for you, but it’s got to be. Noah McNeely: Do I have the resources not only to design, develop, produce this product, but do I have the resources to sell it? Noah McNeely: What are those resources going to be? Steven Julian: And in your help in answering that question, because I was kind of pushing back against the question, the second question you asked there, what can I sell? Steven Julian: You have to drill down and you have to ask that question more specifically or they have to answer that question more specifically because really what you’re asking is, is there a market for this? Steven Julian: Can the person define the market? Steven Julian: Can you sell it? Steven Julian: Meaning the person who’s got the idea, how would you sell it? Steven Julian: So let me then ask this in helping them answer that question. Steven Julian: How much is it you trying to get them to have their eyes open to all the all that that’s going to entail of selling the product? Steven Julian: or and or how much is it you saying, if you’ll listen to me, I’ve had a lot of experience and I’ve done this for a long time and I’ve done. Steven Julian: this. Steven Julian: On corporate level and individual level, here’s what I believe and I know surrounding what you’ve just told me about this idea. Noah McNeely: It’s a little bit of both. Noah McNeely: It depends on who I’m talking to and how receptive they are. Steven Julian: Ah, there we go. Noah McNeely: Different people with different personalities. Noah McNeely: You know, it’s kind of like the old Aesop’s fables, the way he would teach very powerful people lessons without insulting them, as he would tell a story about someone else who was fictional. Noah McNeely: They would maybe learn a lesson about. Noah McNeely: So sometimes I have to do that. Noah McNeely: And it comes along as, you know, I have to say, you know, look, I’m not into sales. Noah McNeely: I’m not into marketing. Noah McNeely: I design, build, and create stuff. Noah McNeely: I can help you fill a warehouse full of product. Noah McNeely: That’s no problem. Noah McNeely: We got that. Noah McNeely: What I can’t help you do is I can’t help you sell. Noah McNeely: I can’t help you market. Noah McNeely: I can tell you what I’ve seen other people do and what that’s cost them. Noah McNeely: And oftentimes that loan and going through that process is enough to help them realize, oh, I hadn’t thought about that. Noah McNeely: I hadn’t thought about that. Noah McNeely: I am going to need a budget for that. Noah McNeely: And so sometimes I approach it that way. Noah McNeely: Sometimes people come in and they do have a lot of really good business savvy, business knowledge, business experience. Noah McNeely: They understand that right up front. Noah McNeely: I have to do a lot less in those cases. Noah McNeely: Sometimes in those cases, it’s more about explaining why it costs so much to make this product or that product or whatever it is. Steven Julian: So let me just ask Noah McNeely, the Product Quick Start CEO and the guy who’s done this for more than a few years, although you only look like you’ve been doing it for a few years. Noah McNeely: Well, hair dye goes a long way. Steven Julian: Exactly. Steven Julian: And flattery will get me everywhere. Steven Julian: Do you enjoy to an extent when someone who’s just starting out in this, it’s their first idea, they’ve never run a business, but they’re receptive to your kind of expertise and guidance. Steven Julian: There’s that that’s satisfying. Steven Julian: As well as the satisfying of kind of someone with some business savvy who knows the business stuff and you don’t have to spend as much time on that and you can really just focus on. Steven Julian: the product development. Steven Julian: Is there a preference one where this is just a personal question I’m asking at this point? Noah McNeely: That is a very difficult question. Noah McNeely: Exactly. Steven Julian: I’m slightly annoyed. Noah McNeely: It’s very individual based. Steven Julian: This is a relational thing for you, right? Steven Julian: This is a relational business, even for you and this. Noah McNeely: I’ll put you this way. Noah McNeely: I’m at a point in my career, I’ve done this long enough, I don’t usually have to work with people I dislike. Noah McNeely: Now, I will do my best to help anyone. Noah McNeely: Even if I dislike you, I will try to point you in a good direction, sometimes to someone I don’t like, but also. Noah McNeely: They don’t know that. Noah McNeely: Yeah, they don’t know that. Noah McNeely: No, but either can be good. Noah McNeely: I think it’s better for me to answer this from the standpoint of what’s the worst type of relationship. Steven Julian: Oh, there we go. Noah McNeely: That’s where someone comes in and they’ve never developed a product before. Noah McNeely: They don’t know anything about it, but they saw something on TV. Noah McNeely: So now they’re an expert or they stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Noah McNeely: So now they’re an expert and they come in and they’re like, this is how you’re going to do it. Noah McNeely: This is how you’re going to do it. Noah McNeely: And I’m like, well, why are you here? Noah McNeely: How am I supposed to help you? Noah McNeely: You know everything already. Noah McNeely: Even though everything you just told me is completely wrong. Noah McNeely: I know you’ve read a book about it that some idiot wrote who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but that’s not how you do it. Noah McNeely: That’s not how the real world works. Noah McNeely: So those are not good relationships. Noah McNeely: Those usually end quickly. Noah McNeely: The other side of that is people that they just cannot accept what I’m telling them. Noah McNeely: So here’s the problem you have. Noah McNeely: And if you cannot solve this problem, You don’t have a business. Noah McNeely: Now, that’s just my opinion, but my opinion is based on a lot of experience, and some people just, they get really irritated about that, and I never hear from them again, and that’s probably for the best for me. Noah McNeely: But unfortunately, they then go out and they find an engineer who’s just happy to take their money, and they’ll spend a year. Noah McNeely: Dumping thousands of dollars into making something that they can never afford to produce or. Noah McNeely: that it’s never going to sell or it’s just the wrong market. Steven Julian: I like the way you answered that question. Steven Julian: Well done. Steven Julian: I asked a difficult question. Steven Julian: Noah gave a great answer to it. Steven Julian: So let me transition from the second question you asked of what can I sell. Steven Julian: And let’s kind of circle back real quick to that first question. Steven Julian: What can I get to the market with my resources? Steven Julian: This is a… Another way of kind of talking about minimum viable products. Steven Julian: So what do you need to know from the person that you’re talking to? Steven Julian: when it comes, because that word resources, let me unpack that just a little bit more. Steven Julian: You know, what can I get to the market with my resources? Steven Julian: You kind of need to know some things. Steven Julian: How much money do you have? Steven Julian: How much time do you have? Steven Julian: Kind of break that down. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I need them to be honest with themselves and with me.

Noah McNeely: Stuff costs what it costs. Noah McNeely: You know, I can’t work for free. Noah McNeely: Most people cannot. Noah McNeely: It doesn’t do you or me any good for you to come in and wear a fancy suit, pretend like you have. Noah McNeely: all this money, and then you don’t. Noah McNeely: Because then you and I are going to talk and go, hey, this is generally what this is going to cost. Noah McNeely: And you’re going to get one or two steps into that and say, oh, I can’t afford to go any further. Noah McNeely: Well, it’s like, well, why did you waste the money on the first two steps? Noah McNeely: I told you what it was going to cost to get this far. Noah McNeely: It’s like, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Well. Noah McNeely: I can’t refund your money. Noah McNeely: All the work is done. Noah McNeely: The prototypes are built. Noah McNeely: Whatever it is, that’s done. Noah McNeely: I’m sorry you can’t take it any further, but I don’t know what you want me to do. Noah McNeely: Go out and raise some money and come back in a few years, I guess. Noah McNeely: So that’s kind of the worst scenario there. Noah McNeely: I think I do need to do my best to explain to them, and I try my very best to this where I can. Noah McNeely: This is generally what it’s going to take. Noah McNeely: Hear what they’re trying to do. Noah McNeely: I’ll lay out a scope. Noah McNeely: Okay, the first phase is to get us to a prototype. Noah McNeely: I can give. Noah McNeely: that a pretty tight number. Noah McNeely: If there’s stuff in there, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Are we going to end up in this material or that material? Noah McNeely: Beyond that, I have to give an estimated range. Noah McNeely: And then I can give my best guess at what the manufacturing is going to cost. Noah McNeely: But I can’t, you know, obviously on day one, nothing’s been designed. Noah McNeely: So I don’t know exactly what that is going to cost at the back end. Noah McNeely: So I do my best to open their eyes to what the costs are going to be. Noah McNeely: And also a little bit, you know, you’re going to have to have money for marketing. Noah McNeely: If you’re going to do a patent, I’ll send them to Brock, who you may know from other shows. Noah McNeely: All that’s going to take money. Noah McNeely: You may have to prioritize what you want to spend your money on and how you want to spend it. Noah McNeely: And I think actually in our next episode, we have some ideas about that. Steven Julian: Ooh, fellow with a tease. Noah McNeely: A slight tease, yes. Noah McNeely: I like that. Steven Julian: Well done. Noah McNeely: I am not a radio professional. Steven Julian: You just played one on this podcast. Steven Julian: So let me just, again, push back slightly on the word resources. Steven Julian: So we are talking about money. Steven Julian: There’s no question. Steven Julian: that is the main. Noah McNeely: Not just money. Steven Julian: Well, that was my question. Steven Julian: Don’t take my question away from me. Steven Julian: You definitely are not a professional when you did that. Noah McNeely: Clearly not. Steven Julian: So apart from money, what other resources can people bring to the table that you need to know about that will help you in helping them develop their products? Steven Julian: See how I did that? Steven Julian: Was that good? Steven Julian: All right. Noah McNeely: Thank you. Noah McNeely: So you may have other resources in terms of people in your network. Noah McNeely: You know, if you come in and say, I have this great idea and it’s for, you know, baseball players and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Noah McNeely: And okay, that’s great. Noah McNeely: But you don’t tell me, oh, and by the way, my cousin plays Major League Baseball. Noah McNeely: Well, you know, that’s a resource that we could know about. Noah McNeely: that can actually change my mind about how you would market this. Noah McNeely: Oh, well, maybe you don’t need all this money for marketing because your cousin can endorse it. Noah McNeely: Well, that may change what I advise you. Noah McNeely: on. Noah McNeely: