Product Genius, the Podcast for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and Startups
Honest advice for inventors—with obscure cultural references included at no extra charge.
Episode
247
How Teamwork Created the iLevel
How does an inventor turn a dream into a licensed product? Steven and Noah sit down with iLevel inventor Andrew Varner, electronics engineer Jason Koher of Aqua Engineering, and industrial designers Carlo Russo and Tim Hayes of Cardboard Helicopter to unpack the teamwork behind a color-changing carpenter’s level. They explore crude prototypes, electronics development, industrial design, manufacturability, iteration, patent constraints, realistic timelines, and the persistence it took to turn roughly 100 no’s into a licensing deal with Franklin Sensors. It’s a real-world lesson in why successful inventors tinker, listen, adapt, collaborate, and keep knocking on doors.
Core Topics for this episode:
- Invention Process
- Interviews
Key Takeaways Include:
Listen here:
Episode Blog
How Teamwork Created the iLevel: What Inventors Can Learn From a Successful Product Collaboration
Great inventions are often associated with one person having one brilliant idea.
The reality is usually more interesting.
A successful product may begin with one inventor, but getting it from an idea to something customers can actually buy often requires a collection of people with very different skills.
Episode 247 of Product Genius provides a particularly good example.
Inventor Andrew Varner joins Steven Julian and Noah McNeely along with electronics engineer Jason Koher of Aqua Engineering and industrial designers Carlo Russo and Tim Hayes of Cardboard Helicopter to tell the story of iLevel—a carpenter’s level that uses color-changing illumination to make it obvious when the tool is level.
The finished product looks deceptively simple.
Getting there was anything but.
The Idea Came From a Dream
Andrew’s original idea literally arrived while he was asleep.
After doing some home renovation work, he dreamed about a level that changed colors as its orientation changed. When he woke up, the idea stuck with him.
Traditional spirit levels require the user to look at a bubble vial. Andrew imagined something much easier to see: a level that turns green when level, yellow when close, and red when it is significantly off.
That simple visual change creates an important benefit.
You can see the result from a distance and from different viewing angles without staring directly at a small bubble.
Andrew started asking a crucial inventor question:
Does this already exist?
When he could not find the product he had imagined, he began experimenting.
Start Tinkering Before You Spend Big Money
Andrew does not describe himself as an engineer or industrial designer.
He calls himself a tinkerer.
That turned out to be one of his greatest strengths.
Before hiring professionals, he built crude versions of the concept himself. They were not commercially viable products. They did not look polished. But they helped prove the fundamental idea.
That early tinkering gave the professional development team something extremely valuable: information.
Carlo and Tim point out that inventors can save substantial time and money by exploring ideas before jumping immediately into formal development.
Sketch something.
Build something ugly.
Tape pieces together.
Use paperclips and rubber bands if necessary.
The goal is not to impress anyone.
The goal is to learn.
Every inexpensive question you answer before expensive engineering begins can make the professional development process more efficient.
Know When Your Tinkering Has Reached Its Limit
There is an equally important second half to that advice.
Andrew knew when he had reached the limit of what he could accomplish himself.
His prototype demonstrated the idea.
It did not transform him overnight into an electronics engineer or industrial designer.
That is when specialists entered the picture.
Jason worked on the electronics and sensing system.
Carlo and Tim worked on industrial design, refinement, CAD, aesthetics, usability, manufacturability, and making the concept look and feel like a real commercial tool.
Andrew continued to provide the product vision.
The project became collaborative.
For inventors, recognizing that transition point can be critical.
Doing things yourself is valuable when it accelerates learning.
Doing things yourself becomes expensive when it prevents the project from advancing.
Specialists See Problems Differently
Noah describes his own role at Product QuickStart using a medical analogy.
He is more like a general practitioner.
Specialists such as Jason, Carlo, and Tim can go deeply into particular disciplines.
That diversity of expertise matters because product-development problems rarely stay neatly inside one category.
Electronics decisions affect mechanical design.
Industrial design affects manufacturing.
Patent strategy can affect engineering architecture.
Manufacturing limitations can force changes to a seemingly ideal technical solution.
Cost affects nearly everything.
A strong product team does not simply hand a project from one disconnected discipline to another.
The disciplines collaborate.
The Best Technical Idea May Not Be the Best Product Idea
Jason provides a great example.
While developing the sensing system, the team explored a miniature plumb-bob mechanism partly because of the patent landscape surrounding other sensing approaches.
Technically, it was an interesting solution.
Practically, it became problematic.
Manufacturers were reluctant or unable to quote the complicated subassembly.
That meant the team had to reconsider the approach.
This illustrates one of the most important realities of product development:
The theoretically best solution is not necessarily the commercially best solution.
A brilliant mechanism that cannot be manufactured economically is not a brilliant product solution.
Engineering has to exist in the real world.
Suppliers need to make the parts.
Assemblers need to build the product.
Quality needs to be controlled.
Costs need to fit the business model.
Sometimes good product development means abandoning an elegant idea in favor of one that can actually reach customers.
You Cannot Prototype Everything in Your Head
The iLevel also demonstrates why physical prototypes matter.
One early concept involved having the level blink when it reached zero.
On paper, that sounded logical.
Then they built it.
The blinking effect was distracting and visually unpleasant.
So they changed it.
That seems obvious after the fact.
It was not obvious before the prototype existed.
Andrew describes the larger lesson well: when you imagine something that does not yet exist, you may be convinced you know how it should behave. Once you build it, the experience can be completely different.
That is exactly what prototypes are for.
They convert assumptions into experiences.
And sometimes the prototype’s most valuable job is proving that your original idea was wrong.
Be Willing to Let Your Idea Change
Several members of the team identify Andrew’s open-mindedness as one of the reasons the project worked.
He had a strong vision for what the product needed to accomplish.
But he was not so emotionally attached to every implementation detail that nobody else could contribute.
That balance matters.
Inventors should protect the core value of their idea.
They should also allow experts, customers, prototypes, manufacturing realities, and market discoveries to improve it.
Andrew gives a great example from after development: the RV market.
The team originally thought about the product primarily as a construction tool.
Later, people realized that an illuminated level visible from a distance could be useful when leveling RVs and trailers.
That application was not central to the original development plan.
The market taught them something new.
Good products often discover opportunities their inventors did not originally anticipate.
Industrial Design Is More Than Making It Pretty
When Cardboard Helicopter joined the project, the functional idea already existed.
Their job was not merely to put a nice-looking shell around it.
They needed to make the product usable, marketable, manufacturable, visually appropriate for its target customer, and recognizable as a serious tool.
That meant thinking about details such as ruggedness, geometry, aesthetics, materials, form, and the expectations of customers shopping in places like hardware and big-box stores.
This is an important distinction for inventors.
Industrial design is not decoration.
It connects function with the human being who will buy and use the product.
A product can work perfectly and still fail if it looks confusing, feels awkward, communicates the wrong value, or appears inappropriate for its market.
Manage Expectations Early
Carlo and Tim also discuss something Product Genius listeners have heard Noah say many times:
Product development takes time.
Inventors routinely arrive with unrealistic schedules.
They may believe they can begin development now and have thousands of finished products on shelves by Christmas.
Usually, that is not how this works.
The iLevel journey took years.
Andrew began pursuing the idea around 2018. The product eventually reached the market roughly seven years later, including the licensing company’s own development and commercialization timeline.
Not every product takes seven years.
But inventors should understand that development involves exploration, design, engineering, intellectual property, prototyping, testing, manufacturing preparation, business development, licensing or funding, production, and distribution.
Some stages overlap.
Some go smoothly.
Others send you backward.
Realistic expectations help inventors preserve both their budgets and their sanity.
Licensing Requires Relentlessness
Perhaps the most valuable part of Andrew’s story comes after the product was developed enough to present professionally.
He needed someone to license it.
So he started knocking on doors.
And kept knocking.
Phone calls.
Emails.
Networking.
Travel.
Trade shows.
Introductions.
Google searches.
Anything that could lead to the right person.
Andrew estimates that he accumulated around 100 no’s.
That number deserves to stick in an inventor’s head.
Many inventors approach licensing with a list of three companies and assume one of them will say yes.
What happens when all three say no?
Andrew viewed rejection differently.
A no eliminated someone who was not going to help.
Then he moved to the next opportunity.
You Don’t Always Need a Yes
Andrew offers a particularly useful way to think about licensing outreach:
You may not need someone to say yes.
You may only need them to say maybe.
Or:
“This isn’t for me, but I know somebody you should talk to.”
That is eventually what helped connect Andrew with Franklin Sensors.
A contact knew someone associated with the company.
Franklin Sensors already had success with stud finders and was interested in expanding into additional tool categories.
Even then, the answer was not immediately yes.
At first, Franklin Sensors turned him down.
Andrew continued the conversation.
The no became a maybe.
The maybe eventually became a licensing deal.
That persistence is difficult to manufacture artificially.
You have to believe enough in the opportunity to keep moving without becoming incapable of hearing legitimate criticism.
That is another balancing act successful inventors learn.
Find the Right Licensing Partner, Not Merely the Biggest One
Andrew also made an interesting strategic choice.
Rather than assuming the largest tool company was automatically the best licensing target, he recognized that Franklin Sensors could have a specific reason to care about his technology.
They already had successful products.
They understood tools.
They were looking to expand.
And iLevel could matter enough to receive meaningful attention.
That is often more valuable than simply chasing the largest corporation in an industry.
The best licensing partner is a company whose capabilities, distribution, strategy, and needs align with what your invention offers.
Teamwork Does Not Mean Everyone Does Everything
The iLevel story also illustrates what good collaboration actually looks like.
Andrew brought the idea, persistence, tinkering, and product vision.
Jason brought specialized electronics knowledge.
Carlo and Tim brought deep industrial-design expertise.
The eventual licensee brought manufacturing, commercialization, and market infrastructure.
Nobody needed to become an expert in everybody else’s discipline.
In fact, the strength of the team came from the differences.
That is an important mindset for inventor entrepreneurs.
Building a successful product does not require you to personally master electronics engineering, industrial design, mechanical engineering, intellectual property, manufacturing, branding, marketing, sales, logistics, and retail distribution.
It requires understanding what the project needs and assembling the right expertise at the right time.
The Product Genius Take
The iLevel began with a dream.
But dreams are cheap.
What made this one commercially meaningful was everything that happened after Andrew woke up.
He investigated whether the idea existed.
He tinkered.
He protected the concept.
He built crude prototypes.
He recognized his limitations.
He hired specialists.
He listened to them.
The team built and tested.
Ideas that seemed good were discarded when reality proved otherwise.
The design evolved.
Andrew knocked on doors.
He heard no.
Again.
And again.
And again.
Eventually, the right combination of product, persistence, relationships, and timing produced a licensing deal.
That is a much more useful inventor story than the myth of the lone genius having a brilliant idea and becoming successful overnight.
The genius is often in the team.
And sometimes getting your invention to the next level requires realizing you do not have to do every part of it yourself.
Pun absolutely intended.
Or, read the full transcript here:
Steven Julian: So anyways, this inventor, an electronics engineer, two industrial designers, and a stern but pleasant Noah walk into a podcast. What happens is next level. On Product Genius.
Andrew Varner: Do you want to be a successful inventor entrepreneur? Struggling to get your product from idea to market? Well, you’ve come to the right place. Welcome to Product Genius, the down-to-earth podcast that explores important topics about inventing and launching new products. Noah McNeely is your trusted guide. With more than 20 years of product launch experience, he’s here to help you on your journey to become a product genius. Let’s get started. Here’s your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian.
Steven Julian: Hey, that’s my line. Yes, welcome to another wonderful, stupendous, and thankfully air-conditioned episode. Of Product Genius. We are deep inside the lair of Product Quick Start. Seated to my right is the intrepid producer Jody Smith. Seated across the table from me with a stern but pleasant look on his face is the actual host, the actual first genius, because he’s the one who got all the geniuses together around the table. It’s Noah McNeely.
Noah McNeely: You know, I’m going to put that on my business card. Stern but pleasant looking face.
Steven Julian: Stern but pleasant looking face. So you could just put stern but pleasant.
Noah McNeely: Really, that should go more of a dating profile if I wasn’t married. Yes.
Steven Julian: You’re engineering already.
Noah McNeely: Yep. I’m going to stop.
Steven Julian: We have got a great show today. The word roundtable was thrown out, then quickly dismissed sternly, but pleasantly. And it’s more of a conversation. Noah, you’ve gathered a motley crew. You’ve gathered a group of geniuses. You’ve gathered an inventor of a product and his team. And we’re going to just see where the conversation leads us. How is that? Is that what you’re looking for?
Noah McNeely: Yeah, I think that’s great. Andrew’s going to join us and we’ll talk about the rest of the team. He’s the inventor of… And he had a very successful licensing experience. I do want to note that I did not, I was not Andrew’s engineer or designer. In fact, he’s got his designers and engineers on the call with us today. And part of the message there is that there are a lot of us out there that can help develop products. And, you know, a lot of us like to collaborate. And frankly, I look forward to. collaborating with these guys at some point on some future projects.
Steven Julian: So it’s not a roundtable, it’s a collaboration.
Noah McNeely: You know, it’s whatever you want it to be. It’s a conversational collaboration.
Steven Julian: I’m just, okay.
Noah McNeely: Call it what you will.
Steven Julian: Starting to go down that road. I better stop. Andrew Varner is here. He is the inventor of iLevel. And with us also on the call is Jason Coher. He is the electronics engineer from Aqua Engineering. Carlo Russo is the industrial designer from Cardboard Helicopter. And Tim Hayes is also with Cardboard Helicopter and is also an industrial designer. Gentlemen, everybody say hello at once.
Andrew Varner: Oh, that was great.
Steven Julian: And see, nobody is slightly annoying like me. Nobody said hello at once. So they all said hello.
Noah McNeely: I wanted to do that so bad.
Steven Julian: I know you did. That’s why you and I work so well together. Andrew, I am going to start with you. You are the inventor. The product is called iLevel. First of all, tell everybody what the product is and what the product does.
Andrew Varner: Yes, sir. Okay. The elevator pitch. It’s a carpenter’s level or spirit level, plumb level. Everybody has one. Some people have. many. Professionals use them. DIYers use them. Every household has one to make sure that your picture frames are straight. You know what they are. And they all are pretty much operate the same way. They have bubble vials. Some of them have them, you know, one that indicates. So zero degrees for horizontal, maybe another one that indicates 45 degrees, another one that might indicate 90 degrees. You know what I’m talking about. They all kind of operate the same way. The difference with eye level is that when it’s level, the entire device illuminates green. When it’s close to level, it’s yellow. And when it’s not at all close, it illuminates red.
Noah McNeely: I should point out that I’m playing with one at the table right now, and it’s the most fun level I’ve ever had.
Steven Julian: Now, so is the idea here, so one of the things I do very well as the slightly annoying co-host is to ask stupid questions. So I’m going to ask a stupid question. Anyone who’s listening. Who hasn’t pulled it up on their iPhone yet is saying, well, wait a minute, the little air bubble in between the two lines on the level, that’s how I know it’s level. But is this going beyond just getting between the two black lines and going, no, no, this is perfectly level and it lights up green?
Andrew Varner: Yeah, it essentially is doing what the bubble does, but the entire device lets you know that it’s level rather than having to. So if you’re in front of the bubble within whatever proximity that that bubble allows you to see it, you don’t have to rely on that anymore. You can see it from a distance. You can see it from any angle. There’s no question. You know when you’re level. You even know when you’re close to level.
Noah McNeely: Or if you’re like me and you have to wear old man glasses, you don’t have to look for them in your pocket. You just know when it turns green that you’re level.
Steven Julian: There you go. So it helps the eye see when you’re level. All right. Carlo and Tim, let me ask you guys quickly, as industrial designers from Cardboard Helicopter, what was your main role in the process of bringing this product from idea to market?
Andrew Varner: Yeah, so we had a functional prototype presented to us and. thought it had a lot of wow factor and then wanted to make it usable, marketable, manufacturable. Did some, you know, thumbnailing and concept sketching, all the refinement and the CAD of the products.
Noah McNeely: Okay.
Steven Julian: And Jason, as the electronics engineer from Aqua Engineering, what was the main role you played in developing the product?
Andrew Varner: The main role that I played was taking basically what’s called a MEMS sensor, which is the integrated circuit that allows you to know if it’s up, down, left, right, whatever. And put that into some sort of a small circuit board for the prototype so that Andrew could start playing with this thing in its ultimate form factor.
Steven Julian: Noah, it’s time for me to bring you into the conversation and say that with product Quickstart, would you ever find yourself doing the things these gentlemen have done in the project? Or do you lean more toward one side or the other? Because, you know… You know, you’re more the overseer who brings these guys to the table. Talk us through what your role is. You weren’t involved in this one.
Noah McNeely: So yes, no, and maybe. I would not do any. That is such a.
Steven Julian: classic no answer.
Noah McNeely: I would not do any of the things that Jason does. That electronic stuff is like black magic to me. So I would rely on people like Jason to help me with that. And Jason, probably I’ll be calling you. I’ve got a couple of projects coming that I’m going to need your help on. I am an industrial designer as well as an engineer. So like Tim and Carl, I do have some experience there. I think they, based on our earlier discussions, I think you guys really focus deeply on that aspect of projects. And I’ve seen your work in it. It’s fantastic work. But I don’t know. Am I answering your question, Steven? Yeah, absolutely.
Steven Julian: So you do even, you know, because on your business card, it doesn’t say industrial designer. No, no. Industrial design is one of the things you can bring to the table while also at times working with other industrial designers to process.
Noah McNeely: I would say if you want to make a medical comparison, I’m more of a general practitioner, whereas these guys are more specialists.
Steven Julian: Specialists.
Noah McNeely: There you go. Is that a fair thing to say, Tim and Carl? I don’t want to mischaracterize you guys either.
Andrew Varner: Yeah, yeah, for sure. We’re heavily front end, very into sketching, aesthetics, very strong. And I think we approach every project with an inventor’s mindset. We’re inventors ourselves and always thinking of ways to make something more resourceful and agile and certainly budget conscious from the beginning is crucial for a successful product. And we’re thinking about that from the get-go because we know how important that is to the success of the product.
Noah McNeely: Speaking of that, one of the reasons I was excited to have all of you on the program was, you know, Tim, Carlo, Jason, you guys like me, you’ve worked with a lot of inventors. You’ve seen people do things well. You’ve seen people make mistakes. And I think we’ve talked about Andrew did a lot of things really well. He did a lot of things right as an inventor to get his product to the market, to get it licensed. From everyone’s perspective, including you, Andrew, what are some of the best things Andrew did right and did well? And the corollary to that, I hate it when I try to say that word. I’m going to. give that word up. The adjunct to that question is, what are some things you’ve seen? other inventors, anonymously, don’t say their names, what are some things you’ve seen them do? that were really big mistakes that really led to some problems? Anyone can go first.
Andrew Varner: I think something Andrew did particularly well was he wasn’t afraid to tinker around and explore potential solutions before jumping into development, which helped streamline the whole process and reduce costs. And I’m sure he learned a ton before he even started engaging with Jason and ourselves. And I think that’s something that a lot of inventors are a little bit hesitant to do is to just get your hands dirty. Don’t be shy about drawing something very crude and rough. I mean, you should see the initial sketches and prototypes that we create internally. You know, it’ll be a napkin sketch. It’ll be something put together with things around the studio or paperclips and rubber bands, you know. And I think Andrew was super excited about his idea, rightfully so, from the beginning, and he was willing to do a lot of that. Front-end work and saw some of those solutions early on, which helps everybody throughout the process after that. A great deal. Yeah, you took it to a certain level, no pun intended. We’re not used to getting from product developers, inventors, and I thought that was great. Anytime we see that, that just really moves the needle from A to Z. Anytime you get closer to Z on the level of product development, higher success rate. You know, being open-minded and just moving forward the whole time, you know, it was definitely pleasant, good attitude, loved what we were doing. You know, a lot of inventors sometimes have visions and they’re like, no, it’s this way. But, you know, I think he was appreciating what we had done and just kept rolling with that and working with refinements. And it really ultimately helped out with the speed of getting his product license.
Steven Julian: Because I know you could tell us a movie screenplay of it, but give us the–how did this start? Where did the idea first come from? Yeah.
Andrew Varner: By the way, thanks for saying some nice things, guys. My gosh. So, just a background on me. I don’t have a design background. I don’t have an engineering. background. I’m a tinkerer. I think everybody tinkers to a degree. The only thing I think I might have that kind of helped was when I didn’t go to school for it, but I messed around with some code when I was in high school so I could build a website by HTML. That’s about it. I mean, I still get lost in Windows, so I’m not that really great with software or coding or anything. But I knew when I had this idea, Instead of just trying to explain it verbally, I needed to have a physical thing that I could show somebody. And even before I started to build it, I knew it was going to have limitations, but I knew that if I could just dabble a little bit, I can make something work. So the story on how this came to be, I think, I don’t know for sure, but I was… Doing some renovating on a house I was living in, just some really minor things. And I went to bed probably thinking about how I was going to fix the bathroom sink or something. I don’t know. But I dreamt about a level. I. dreamt about a level changing colors as it was changing orientation, changing angles. And then I woke up. And I think that was the last dream I had or something because I just kept thinking about that idea throughout the entire morning. And I just said to myself, is this something I’ve seen somewhere? I started asking people around me. I started calling my friends and they said, no, does that exist? Can I buy one? And for the life of me, I couldn’t find one. So the long and short of it is I would explain it. after I… You know, filed a provisional patent, which is really not all that hard to do. Anybody can do that. Started to protect the idea. I started to look into how I might be able to build this. And so I built a really crude, I think, Noah, I sent you a video of that. And it’s almost comedic when you look at this thing. It does the job, but it doesn’t do it really well. It’s nothing that anybody would ever purchase, but it does basically do the job. So I knew my limitations. I knew I couldn’t get it. to the next step. So that’s when, you know, these guys came in to create something that was going to be really viable.
Noah McNeely: Yeah, but don’t, you know, Andrew, don’t sell yourself short on that whole tinkerer thing. I mean, you described that earlier as just a tinkerer. But, you know, as I think Carlo and Tim alluded to as well, that tinkering. That’s a really big skill set. And yeah, I don’t want to put words in their mouths, but the inventors I run into that don’t do that are often the ones that require the most work to get across the finish line. So I think the fact that you tinkered early on, you had a very open mind about, hey, I’m going to try this. Doesn’t work. I’ll try something else. Doesn’t work. Keep going and keeping down that path. And then you were probably very open to ideas that Tim and Carlo and Jason had. that probably made the product better. You know, I’ve met so many people and these guys probably have too that they come in and it’s like they’ve had the one idea, you know, to take what you said, they dreamt the. idea and that was it. It was done in their mind and nobody could change it. And if anyone tried to change it, it was offensive. Those are the worst people to deal with.
Andrew Varner: Yeah, I think, you know, I think there’s a balance of understanding what your idea is. And also on the flip side, Being open-minded to not be so in love with your idea where you can’t pivot. You can’t change. For example, to bring us up to date with the product that’s on the market, there’s a whole RV market that I don’t think any of us even mentioned three, four years ago when this was being developed. It’s a whole market we didn’t even consider. And now you have to be open to… You know, things that you weren’t aware of throughout the entire process. And while I knew what it needed to do, if anybody had a good idea, it was definitely worth remarking and definitely worth maybe even exploring.
Noah McNeely: So that RV market, just as an aside, is that like when people park the RV and they want to level it out so they can actually put this, your product somewhere on the. dashboard or wherever and then keep adjusting until they see it turn green, I guess.
Andrew Varner: So that’s pretty cool. From what I understand, you put it on your trailer and then from a distance you can see when it’s level. To my knowledge, or to a lot of the people who are putting comments online and starting blogs about it, nothing like that existed before. So not even something that was in my purview before we even started.
Noah McNeely: Cool.
Steven Julian: Carlo and Tim, I’m going to ask two questions and then you guys can fight amongst yourselves of which of you answers the first and which of you answers the second. So the first question is, it’s really just a request, kind of give us a synopsis or a recap of your very first meeting with Andrew when he came in and maybe how it was different from others. When he came in, what was it like, oh, I wish every client that we meet with could do this? And you’ve kind of already said he was coming along nicely in the project, and it’s because of that tinkering that he did on his own and was willing to do. But then. the second question that I would ask is, Noah has spent, we’ve talked to Noah many times on this show. About that first meeting with clients and what it’s like. And we’ve had some fun with it. We’ve also tried to really delve into it and just want to give you guys an opportunity to talk specifically about Cardboard Helicopter and what a typical first meeting is like or what you’re trying to accomplish in that first meeting with any client who comes to talk to you guys.
Andrew Varner: Yeah, I remember just seeing the idea and the wow factor. I said that’s, I think, the best idea I’ve ever seen. I wish we had action in it, part of that royalty. But yeah, it’s a really good product. And, you know, knowing that he was very open-minded to really want industrial design and focus on aesthetics is huge too. A lot of inventors just want to make it and produce it and don’t think that it has to be for that intended user. But I think, you know, designing around that construction trade and other things where this might go into, you know, in Home Depot, Walmart, making this, you know. Angular and more rugged, things like that. He’s really detail-oriented and wanted to make this a great product, not just get this production as fast as possible, but the quickest route. Carl, you can speak more on that. Andrew, you said something a few minutes ago, about three, four years ago, you didn’t consider this. I think that’s really important to know as a first-time inventor or creator of a product. It’s going to take time and you can’t rush it. I mean, things definitely take, you have to see this process through. And I know Andrew probably had some surprises throughout the process, but having a product idea and wanting it to be in stores and Christmas is very unlikely and not realistic.
Noah McNeely: Yeah, tell me about it. You guys have probably had that conversation as many times as I have.
Andrew Varner: Yeah, I think when we first talk to any inventor, we try to manage expectations as much as possible early on to save a headache from us and from them and just so they know what they’re getting involved with. Because I think if you kind of lay it out and show them that the roadmap. is going to be a little long and going to have some ups and downs, if they’re hesitant or if they’re unsure, they might… Not pursue it. And maybe that’s the best thing that they could have done is not pursued a product or an idea that they’re not incredibly passionate about. But if you know the process going in and you’re ready for it and you have a good attitude like Andrew had, I mean, that’s like a green flag on our checklist. And we look for those little green flag, red flags, and just try to give them a dose of reality sometimes because it’s best to do that early on. And I’d rather miss out on a project. Then drag something out and have the inventor’s budget be totally, you know, burned up. Early phases when we all know that when you get to ordering units and product runs, that’s when you really have to start investing or get somebody to help you with capital. But Andrew had a good attitude. He was open-minded and just trusting the experts. And I’m sure it’s very nerve-wracking knowing that you’re giving your idea to somebody else to collaborate with, somebody that you haven’t necessarily met before. But you can tell a lot from the first meeting with somebody and we felt great about the idea, which you need first is a great idea. And then just the person behind it was a good attitude, is willing to get their hands dirty a little bit and also trust the experts, which we’re here to help you get to that point. Get you as a successful product just because obviously it’s what you paid us to do, but also, you know, it’s a little feather in our cap to bring something to market and show it off and say, hey, we did this with this inventor and it worked out and we got a licensing deal. I mean, it’s a great story all around. Product Genius is brought to you by Opu Probiotics. Pre and probiotics you can pour directly on your tongue in delicious mint and mocha flavors. But the taste is just the beginning. With Opu, you can see improved digestive function, boosted immune system, easier weight management, improved mental health, and much more. Try today at getopu.com. That’s get O-P-U dot com.
Steven Julian: We are in the middle of. the Product Genius. Collaboration. I was going to say roundtable, but I can’t use that word. Conversational collaboration. We have Andrew Varner. He is the inventor of iLevel. We have Jason Coher, electronics engineer from Aqua Engineering, and Carlo Russo and Tim Hayes, industrial designers from Cardboard Helicopter. And before I go to the next question, Noah, I have figured it out. These are great guests. I’m so glad you brought them on the show. But I know. At least one of the reasons why you brought him on the show is so that Carlo and Tim could say things that you’ve been saying so that you could tell our audience, see, I’m not crazy. I’m not Don Quixote. I’m not the only one who’s out there screaming at windmills to tell people to have your stuff together and it’s okay. And you’re not going to get this in the stores by Christmas, right?
Noah McNeely: Congratulations. You’ve uncovered my diabolical.
Steven Julian: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I saw right through you.
Noah McNeely: No, when I had this, we had sort of a pre-call the other day, me and Andrew Jason. So I’m very happy to have them on.
Steven Julian: Jason, I want to ask you specifically. as the electronics engineer with Aqua Engineering, you said at the very beginning that I believe it was kind of the sensors. Please correct me if I’m wrong. But, you know, you brought some of the specifics about the lighting and things like that without getting too technical and getting too deep into the minefield. Just kind of what were you able to bring to the product to help with the lighting and things like that?
Andrew Varner: Yeah, well, it’s interesting because Andrew had, you know, he was pursuing a patent and that’s its own like minefield of stuff, right? You have to navigate your way and thread the needle through everybody else’s patent claims. So we kind of had to be mindful of what his vision was for the product, but also like what could get him that patent. So originally the obvious candidates, you know, just an accelerometer, let’s say, might not have been the path that could get him a patent. So we started getting a little bit creative, maybe too creative with using. Like a miniature plumb bob, which is actually like a jeweled mechanism that would almost be like something you’d see in a watch. And. what we found is that we couldn’t find a manufacturer that would quote the assembly, sub-assembly, basically too advanced for them. So that turned into something where we had to dial it back and do some iterating. And Andrew’s tenacity through that whole process was just, you know, what it should be. It was amazing. It was like. he understood the goal. He understood why we were doing stuff. We changed course a few times in the interest of the patent, but we ultimately landed on an electronic sensor that we put on. our first small little board, which I’m looking at right now is like a board. Nobody can see this, but it’s like maybe the surface area of my pinky finger if you fold it all up. We were able to get that onto the prototype so that he could start playing around with an early version of what he had breadboarded up when I first met him.
Steven Julian: I like it. And Jason, in that response, again, longtime listeners of this podcast and slightly annoying hosts and producers who have sat at the table and have no idea what all you guys are talking about, but have heard. similar ideas of just because, you know, you can’t, you know, you can’t make it exactly, it can’t be stainless steel or that’ll change the cost. And I like the story, Jason, that even the… The factory was like, I think this is beyond the scope of what we can do. So fascinating how you find an answer to help make it patentable, but also not impossible to do.
Noah McNeely: Sometimes, just to point that out, or just to dial in on that a little bit, sometimes the best idea, which may have been your plumb bob idea, isn’t the best idea in reality because it can’t be manufactured. Or maybe there’s a couple of factories somewhere that can do it. They’re so specialty, it’s going to be real expensive. So that balancing best idea that you have to take in all the different variables and that’s…
Steven Julian: Minimum viable product, how to get it to market.
Andrew Varner: And if I may, to add to that too, something else we found out during prototyping, which might be a lesson to people who are building a prototype, and I think it is, not just the plumbob that we kind of had to pivot there, but the color orientation changed. And during the prototype phase too, not to get into the too much, but it changed colors at different intervals. And also initially I thought it was supposed to blink when it hit zero, when the level hit zero, we thought initially, okay, this makes sense to make it blink. So we made a prototype, Jason built a prototype that blinked when it hit zero and what had happened. And it’s kind of hard to imagine. So when you’re imagining. You’re envisioning something that doesn’t actually exist. Once you create it, it doesn’t operate the way that you thought it was supposed to operate. So you got to pivot again. Now the finished product doesn’t blink at all because what we learned was it’s kind of disorienting. It does something to your eyeballs that makes you kind of crazy. So we had to kind of change the way that the operation even worked. And the only way we would have known that is by building the prototype. That I thought was supposed to operate this way, but in the end, we had to kind of scrap it and try something else. I don’t know if. you remember that, Jason, but we had to change a few times. What you end up with is, this is something that a lot of inventors don’t understand until we build electronics, is you have certain things that need to happen. You have what they call a debounce. If there’s a button, that’s like 25 to 50 milliseconds where you electrically want to make sure it was actually a button press and not something else. That type of stuff happens on a little MEMS accelerometer sensor, for example. A lot of different things. You need delays have to be a certain length of time. If you start doing flashy stuff or different modes, try to pack too much. Too many modes into a button. that can get confusing. And these things might seem crystal clear when you’re mapping out your vision for your product, but then when you actually build it, it might feel glitchy. So that’s sort of what, you know, Andrew was referencing. We worked through that and were able to evolve it with an actual physical rough prototype.
Noah McNeely: There’s a big difference between theory and practice. Absolutely.
Andrew Varner: And to Jason’s credit, by the way, I should note. that he’s really good. He does all the incredibly smart things and dumbs it down for a guy like me, which I had to. We worked a lot over the phone because we were working on this project through COVID, through a lot of it. And we were doing a lot of phone conversations. I’m like, okay, Jason, please, whatever you just said, just make it a little stupider for me to make this make sense. But by the way, I mean, I’m not afraid of saying that. I’m not afraid of being the guy in the room that just says, I don’t know what you just said. Let’s… Make this easy for me to digest.
Steven Julian: I’m just glad the marketing slogan for the eye level is not the eye level. We won’t make you crazy because it doesn’t blink. So I’m glad that’s the case. Andrew, so you talked about kind of dealing with this in COVID. I’d like to ask the question from the dream of the color eye level where you woke up and went, does this exist? Or did I just dream a new product? To when it actually got on the market. And is what? timeframe?
Andrew Varner: I believe I filed for the patent at the beginning of 2018. And so I started to develop it through the year. I think I met Jason the next year when COVID hit. And throughout all of that, I think we were able to build, I’m trying to go back on my timeline.
Steven Julian: I guess I’d ask, when did it hit the market?
Andrew Varner: It hit the market. Last August. Okay. And so that’s probably a whole other conversation with the manufacturer. They had a two-year sort of runway to develop it themselves. Got it. So that was three years themselves, too. Okay. All said and done, about seven years.
Steven Julian: Okay. And this is the time of the conversation. I probably should have done it sooner, so this was my fault. But the eye level is on the market, and it was licensed to Franklin Sensors. The level that we are playing with in the layer of Product Quick Start says Franklin Sensors on the back. Noah is doing his best. Price is Right model. There are male models. now on Price is Right. My wife likes James.
Noah McNeely: I put in my application.
Steven Julian: I can’t wait to see you on. TV one day. So this was licensed to Franklin Sensors. So I guess my first question about that was, did Franklin approach you guys or was that? Carlo and Tim, were you guys involved? How did Franklin get to the table and start the process of getting involved in this?
Andrew Varner: I get into that one. With my whole process of just knocking on every single door I could find, and then if that door said no, I would ask that whoever was behind that door, okay, then who’s interested? I just wouldn’t stop. And in that process, which was probably a whole other conversation we could have in the whole licensing development stage. I ended up meeting somebody who knew Franklin Censors, and that gentleman became my partner in getting this marketed and getting this manufactured. But we had to come with, in the development stage, we had to be able to present Franklin Censors something that was viable. While Jason and I made something that worked, it needed to be dressed up quite a bit. And that’s where Cardboard Helicopters pretty much, the one you see on the market, With a couple of exceptions, it pretty much looks a. lot like what Cardboard Helicopter designed and sketched. With the piece of plastic and silicone and electronics that we presented them, they dressed it up quite a bit. And that was enough to kind of convince Franklin Sensors, okay, I think we have something here.
Noah McNeely: So for our listeners who are largely inventors and aspiring inventors, Andrew, tell me a little bit about… You said you knocked on a lot of doors. Does that mean you made a lot of phone calls? Did you actually fly around the country and meet with a lot of people? Did you find people on LinkedIn? How did you go about finding the people to talk to?
Steven Julian: All of the above.
Andrew Varner: All of the above. Exactly. It kind of was.
Noah McNeely: So what I’m hearing is there was a level of relentlessness involved here.
Andrew Varner: Yeah. It was just like, you know, when I talk to inventors now, Who are aspiring inventors, I guess, haven’t quite pushed the boulder over the hill. What I tell them is, look, you don’t really need a yes. You just need someone to say maybe. Or you need s
Steven Julian: Greetings and salutations. Steven Julian: I am your slightly annoying host, Steven Julian. Steven Julian: Welcome to a new edition of Product Genius. Steven Julian: This time… Without Tiffany Crumans, but what we do have is the fantastic Noah McNeely. Steven Julian: Noah, welcome back to the show. Noah McNeely: Yeah, it’s good to be back. Noah McNeely: I feel like it’s been an entire pandemic ago. Steven Julian: Almost. Steven Julian: It’s been at least, it’s been a year, but it does kind of feel like a whole pandemic ago. Steven Julian: So, Product Genius, this might sound a little bit different. Steven Julian: There are some differences. Steven Julian: Why don’t? Steven Julian: we cover all that stuff up front?
Steven Julian: Broadcasting this show almost live from the Plush Palatial Studios that is the worldwide headquarters of Product Quick Start. Steven Julian: Tell everybody about your new digs. Noah McNeely: Yes, so Product Quick Start, we were fortunate enough to move into a new facility, well, new to us facility that we’re renovating in what they call the Depot District of Lawrenceville, Georgia, which is this… Exciting little area where we have some breweries and we have a distillery going in. Noah McNeely: that I think is going to make tequila and I try to remain sober during the day when I’m working here. Steven Julian: Especially when you’re doing the show. Steven Julian: Well, maybe not as much when you do that. Noah McNeely: Probably more important that I remain sober when using the power equipment in the back. Steven Julian: Amen. Steven Julian: The other thing we want to talk about for those people who are coming upon this episode and have listened to past episodes. Steven Julian: In some respects, we’re the same, but in some respects, there are some differences. Steven Julian: This show was always known as Product Genius with Tiffany Krumans. Steven Julian: Tiffany is still with us, but she’s not with us in the studio. Steven Julian: So, Noah, I ask. Steven Julian: you, where in the world is Tiffany Krumans? Noah McNeely: Well, anyone that has listened to more recent shows probably knows Tiffany has a lot of ideas for businesses, and she also has… New children in her life, and she stays very, very busy. Noah McNeely: Her latest company is called Opu Probiotics, and it’s a fabulous product. Noah McNeely: I recommend you try it. Noah McNeely: I particularly like the mocha mint flavor. Noah McNeely: But anyway, we believe that Tiffany is scouring the world looking for the finest ingredients she can for that particular product. Noah McNeely: So you might find her in the Himalayas or the Amazon. Noah McNeely: Probably wearing a baby and a baby Bjorn and with three other kids following her around. Steven Julian: And everybody can go to opuprobiotics.com, opuprobiotics.com, and see all the latest things that Tiffany is doing with that product. Steven Julian: And therefore, she was the creator of Product Genius originally, and you were a fantastic partner and sponsor of the show and would come on and talk about… Developing products through your business, productquickstart.com. Steven Julian: And when Tiffany really launched Opu, she told all of us, Jody Smith, the producer of the show, and myself as the slightly annoying host, hey, I’m going to take a little. Steven Julian: bit of time off. Steven Julian: I got to launch this new business. Steven Julian: And then in the meantime, let me just fast forward a little bit. Steven Julian: And I don’t know how much behind the scenes and unplugged you want to get. Steven Julian: Why are you sitting across the table from me and why are you now kind of leading this ship that Tiffany built up to this point? Noah McNeely: Well, first, we’re going to hope that the Shipley is led in a good direction and not running aground. Steven Julian: Not yet, at least. Steven Julian: We’re five minutes in. Steven Julian: It’s so far so good. Noah McNeely: So, yeah, we’re doing great at the moment. Noah McNeely: Well, I always enjoyed doing the show. Noah McNeely: I mean, I had a lot of fun with you guys and it really hits one of my passions, which… I like talking about this stuff. Noah McNeely: I do what I love. Noah McNeely: I enjoy explaining it to people. Noah McNeely: I think the show is a good way to do that. Noah McNeely: I’ve actually met a number of people through the show. Noah McNeely: Those are all great conversations. Noah McNeely: My hope is as we move forward, Product Genius will be a show that’s useful for inventors, of course. Noah McNeely: Really, I think we’re going to. Noah McNeely: talk about things that relate to all entrepreneurs or most entrepreneurs. Noah McNeely: Even to people that work for bigger companies that want to think more like entrepreneurs. Steven Julian: So here we are after more than a year off. Steven Julian: We’re doing a new show. Steven Julian: Noah McNeely is sitting across the table from me. Steven Julian: Jody Smith from JodySmith.com is still our producer. Steven Julian: I’m still the slightly annoying host. Steven Julian: And here we are still talking about product development. Steven Julian: We’re going to talk about inventing. Steven Julian: And today we’re talking about help. Steven Julian: I’ve got too many ideas. Steven Julian: Which is definitely true of this show after not doing it for a year. Steven Julian: And people who are doing product development and kind of trying to bring their product to market, as they’re bringing one product to market, they have all these other ideas. Steven Julian: That’s the entrepreneurial, that’s the inventor. Steven Julian: There’s a lot of people listening who, number one, are going, okay, yeah, they’re talking about something I need to talk about. Steven Julian: And when you’re listening to this, you might also be thinking, Ooh, I know someone else that needs to hear this. Steven Julian: So listen to this one, invite them to hear the show because we’re going to be talking. Steven Julian: about, I got too many ideas. Steven Julian: So the title of the show, obviously I gave a little bit of a inkling of it.
Steven Julian: You are guilty of this just like anybody else, right? Noah McNeely: Oh, absolutely. Noah McNeely: In fact, the fact that I’m doing this podcast while writing a business and… Engaging in various other hobbies may be an example of where I’m guilty of this, but I’m trying to balance it well. Noah McNeely: And we thought this would be a really good topic for the first show because Tiffany is actually a great example of doing this well. Noah McNeely: She realized at some point that she had too many different things going on. Noah McNeely: So to be successful, she had to push some of them to the back, and that’s why. Noah McNeely: That’s why we’re here. Steven Julian: That’s why she’s out finding those great products or finding those great ingredients to go into the mint mocha. Noah McNeely: That’s why she’s in the Amazon today. Noah McNeely: Exactly. Noah McNeely: So, you know, this is a problem that doesn’t just affect inventors and entrepreneurs. Noah McNeely: It actually affects big companies as well. Noah McNeely: And back when I did a lot of big company work, this was a topic that would come up. Noah McNeely: The big. Noah McNeely: scary corporate name for this is portfolio management. Noah McNeely: As an inventor entrepreneur, you never need to use that phrase again, probably. Noah McNeely: But the idea is even big companies, they have so many things that they want to do or would love to do, but they can’t do them all. Noah McNeely: In a big company, like a Fortune 500 company, I almost said some names there, but I don’t want to be sued or anything by any of my clients from years ago. Noah McNeely: In a big company, you have entire teams of people in many cases. Noah McNeely: Their whole job is to manage and really to do the portfolio management role. Noah McNeely: They’ll have roadmaps of products that the company is going to develop for five, ten years out in some cases, and they have to prioritize those. Steven Julian: So let’s talk about the person who’s listening to this podcast who’s trying to bring one or a couple of products to market or are trying to build their business. Steven Julian: Go from idea to prototype to development.
Steven Julian: When you say, help, I’ve got too many ideas, can that be true of one product? Noah McNeely: It can be. Noah McNeely: It can be true of one product or it can. Noah McNeely: also just be the nature of the individual. Noah McNeely: So I’ve met people that clients have come in and they get really excited about their product. Noah McNeely: We go through that. Noah McNeely: And then a lot of times on the way out the door, they’re like, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Noah McNeely: I’ve got seven more I’m working on. Noah McNeely: We’re going to talk about them next time. Noah McNeely: And I think they tell me that to get me more excited about working with them, but that’s really often a red flag. Noah McNeely: So on the next meeting, you’re at the next meeting, I usually have to tamp that down a little bit and say, you know, look, that’s great. Noah McNeely: I love all these ideas, but let’s get one on the market first. Noah McNeely: And I think that can be a tough thing for entrepreneurs, even myself, because I have… I have so many things I want to accomplish and want to do, but it’s easy to want to spend all the time in the visionary stage. Noah McNeely: Hey, this is going to be fun. Noah McNeely: I’m going to spend all day thinking about this idea and jotting out what’s it going to be like when. Noah McNeely: I’m done. Noah McNeely: But the problem is there’s a lot of things that have to happen between now and achieving that vision. Steven Julian: And the ideas is the sexy part. Steven Julian: The ideas is the everybody’s. Steven Julian: Had at least one or two ideas. Steven Julian: I actually, I still don’t know why at times I’m the slightly annoying host of the show because I’ve had very few ideas of products. Steven Julian: I’ve never tried to develop anything, but I would relate it. Steven Julian: I, I love the world of comedy and I love listening to comedians, especially them talking about doing jokes. Steven Julian: And it’s one thing to have, Hey, Seinfeld had a book called, is this anything you start with an idea? Steven Julian: Hey, is this anything? Steven Julian: Is this potentially funny? Steven Julian: But from that point to getting it to where it’s a tight bit to be done on stage, there’s this huge, there’s a lot of work that goes in. Steven Julian: So you just mentioned it’s easy to do the ideas. Steven Julian: I got seven more, but they got all this work they got to do to just to get that one. Steven Julian: But I want to drill down and I want to kind of push back and ask even that. Steven Julian: person who’s on that one, I’ve got too many ideas. Steven Julian: Do they get sidetracked with too many things even in that one single idea? Steven Julian: That they’re bringing to market? Noah McNeely: Yeah, that can happen too.
Noah McNeely: I think we may have talked about this a long time ago, but there’s a concept I call minimum viable product or early viable product. Steven Julian: I remember that. Noah McNeely: Yes, it’s a classic. Noah McNeely: You should check it out. Noah McNeely: But the issue there is sometimes maybe it is just one product, but they have all these ideas for that one product. Noah McNeely: Oh, I want it to do this. Noah McNeely: I want it to do that. Noah McNeely: I want it to be Wi-Fi and I want it to levitate and I want it to glow in the dark. Noah McNeely: Sir, it’s a doorknob. Noah McNeely: It doesn’t need to necessarily do all that. Noah McNeely: Those are all great. Noah McNeely: Let’s get one on the market. Noah McNeely: because all that stuff you just talked about, that’s a two-year development program. Noah McNeely: If we just do your basic product, which is already cool and already different than anything out there, you can be on the market in six months. Noah McNeely: You can generate revenue. Noah McNeely: You’ve got a successful business at that. Noah McNeely: point. Noah McNeely: And more importantly, you’ve got money that you can now spend on Gen 2 and Gen 3 and Gen 4. Noah McNeely: But if we start down the path of developing, The super mega colossal product now, you’re never going to get there. Steven Julian: And we titled this show again, Help, but I think probably more often than not your job as the product development guru, as the genius who helps people bring their product to market, you have to tell them you really should be saying, Help, I have too many ideas in this super amazing, stupendous product. Steven Julian: Very rarely do they verbalize that. Steven Julian: You’re helping them verbalize. Noah McNeely: Right. Noah McNeely: Well, sometimes I have to help people realize it is a problem because, like I said, a lot of visionary people and a lot of entrepreneurs, like myself, we do tend to love that visionary phase. Noah McNeely: And we think that’s the most important thing. Noah McNeely: It’s not. Noah McNeely: It’s actually one of the least important and easiest parts of having a successful business.
Noah McNeely: So think about it this way. Noah McNeely: Think about all the little boys who dream about winning a Super Bowl as the quarterback. Noah McNeely: Now, you can’t just keep dreaming about winning a. Super Bowl. Noah McNeely: That’s great. Noah McNeely: That’s a wonderful vision. Noah McNeely: But if you don’t start exercising and training and learning the game, you’ll never play on a team, much less get to the Super Bowl. Steven Julian: So it’s a difference between being a Super Bowl quarterback and being Uncle Rico sitting on the front step saying, if Coach had put me in that game, we would have won the state that year. Noah McNeely: That’s exactly right. Noah McNeely: And there are no time machines that will get you back there. Steven Julian: Exactly. Steven Julian: So portfolio management, to use the term of the Fortune 500 companies, is really them kind of categorizing or siloing or insert other corporate term here. Steven Julian: But really, it’s checking boxes. Steven Julian: It’s laying it out in steps.
Steven Julian: Is that something that you, as the person with Product Quick Start, is trying to help people say, okay, here are the 17 steps that we’re going to have to take? Steven Julian: Or is it just getting them focused on creating the 17 steps? Steven Julian: Kind of talk through that process. Steven Julian: Someone’s got an idea, and then someone starts to spiral into too many ideas. Steven Julian: The portfolio management that you do, not for the Fortune 500, but for the individual. Steven Julian: entrepreneur and inventor, what do you try to bring to the table? Noah McNeely: Yeah, so it’s really launch your product in 375 easy steps. Noah McNeely: No, it’s not. Noah McNeely: There’s really only two questions. Steven Julian: I thought it was 367 steps. Noah McNeely: We revised it last year. Noah McNeely: Oh, okay. Noah McNeely: So there’s really only two. Noah McNeely: Two questions that I ask people to consider when they’re trying to prioritize the features of their product or which product to develop or which product to develop when. Noah McNeely: And with the assumption that inventor entrepreneurs, you probably don’t have five people or 20 people on a team that you’re paying to do all the analysis. Noah McNeely: And yeah, you go to a really big company and they’re going to ask a lot more than these two questions. Noah McNeely: At least they’re going to ask a lot more versions of these two questions. Noah McNeely: But the two questions I tell people to consider is, number one, what can I get to the market with my resources? Noah McNeely: And of course, I can help them try to figure that out. Noah McNeely: This is how much it’s going to take to develop this product, to make the tooling for it, to produce it. Noah McNeely: So we have to be. Noah McNeely: realistic about what resources you have to actually get that to the market. Noah McNeely: And that may mean you can’t launch five at a time. Noah McNeely: Now, I’ve had some clients that are just independently wealthy, and yeah, they can do it. Noah McNeely: They have the resources for that. Noah McNeely: It can still be a bad idea in those cases because a resource that people often overlook is their own time, their own focus, their own ability to strategize and think about their business. Noah McNeely: So the second question is, what can I sell? Noah McNeely: You know, what will I be able to sell? Noah McNeely: So, yeah, this is a great idea. Noah McNeely: I have the funds to develop it. Noah McNeely: I have the resources to develop it. Noah McNeely: But is there a market for it? Noah McNeely: And is it a market that I understand well enough to actually sell? Noah McNeely: And the answer to either of those questions is no. Noah McNeely: Then that’s probably not the product you should develop first. Noah McNeely: You need to focus on the product or the collection of features in your product. Noah McNeely: that both of those answers are yes. Steven Julian: And I know we’ve talked about variations of those questions over past episodes. Steven Julian: Encourage everybody to go back and. Steven Julian: listen to Noah’s past episodes on Product Genius. Noah McNeely: Product Genius is brought to you by Opu Probiotics. Noah McNeely: Pre and probiotics you can pour directly on your tongue in delicious mint and mocha flavors. Steven Julian: But the taste is just the beginning. Noah McNeely: With Opu, you can see improved digestive function, boosted immune system, easier weight management, improved mental health, and much more. Noah McNeely: Try today at GetOpu.com. Steven Julian: That’s GetOpu.com. Steven Julian: Let me focus in on the second question. Steven Julian: first, because I think… The typical inventor entrepreneur who sits down with you, especially with their first idea, and you ask them that question, you know, what can I sell? Steven Julian: Can this sell? Steven Julian: Their answer, bar none, is going to be, well, of course this is going to sell. Steven Julian: It’s a fantastic idea. Steven Julian: I came up with this. Steven Julian: It came in a bolt of lightning. Steven Julian: Everybody who brings you any idea is going to tell you, well, of course it’s going to sell. Steven Julian: It’s fantastic. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I’ve heard variations of, well, why wouldn’t you buy this if you could buy it? Noah McNeely: I’ve probably heard a hundred variations of that throughout the course of my career.
Steven Julian: You’re a communist pig if you don’t buy this, of course. Steven Julian: This is great. Steven Julian: Sorry, that was my insertion, not Noah’s. Steven Julian: My apologies. Noah McNeely: Yeah, so we’re going to remain politically apolitical here as best we can. Noah McNeely: Uh, yeah. Noah McNeely: So a lot of, um, a lot of inventor entrepreneurs, they’re so enamored by their idea. Noah McNeely: They just can’t imagine it not being successful. Noah McNeely: And then they’re like, well, as soon as people see this, they’re going to want it. Noah McNeely: That may be true. Noah McNeely: And that, that in some ways that for most people, that probably is true. Noah McNeely: The question becomes, how do you reach those people? Noah McNeely: And that’s also part of how do you sell it? Noah McNeely: Can you sell it? Noah McNeely: Uh, so if you’ve got a, it’s a product that, oh, everyone would use it. Noah McNeely: Well, that’s almost the worst kind of product for an inventor because. Noah McNeely: You don’t have the marketing budget to reach everybody. Noah McNeely: If it’s more focused, like, well, people that have teenage girls that want to learn how to play golf, you can reach that market a lot easier and in a more forceful way. Noah McNeely: So that’s also part of, you know, what’s it going to take to sell this? Noah McNeely: Not necessarily even, do I have the sales? Noah McNeely: skills? Noah McNeely: You can always hire someone to do that for you, but it’s got to be. Noah McNeely: Do I have the resources not only to design, develop, produce this product, but do I have the resources to sell it? Noah McNeely: What are those resources going to be? Steven Julian: And in your help in answering that question, because I was kind of pushing back against the question, the second question you asked there, what can I sell? Steven Julian: You have to drill down and you have to ask that question more specifically or they have to answer that question more specifically because really what you’re asking is, is there a market for this? Steven Julian: Can the person define the market? Steven Julian: Can you sell it? Steven Julian: Meaning the person who’s got the idea, how would you sell it? Steven Julian: So let me then ask this in helping them answer that question. Steven Julian: How much is it you trying to get them to have their eyes open to all the all that that’s going to entail of selling the product? Steven Julian: or and or how much is it you saying, if you’ll listen to me, I’ve had a lot of experience and I’ve done this for a long time and I’ve done. Steven Julian: this. Steven Julian: On corporate level and individual level, here’s what I believe and I know surrounding what you’ve just told me about this idea. Noah McNeely: It’s a little bit of both. Noah McNeely: It depends on who I’m talking to and how receptive they are. Steven Julian: Ah, there we go. Noah McNeely: Different people with different personalities. Noah McNeely: You know, it’s kind of like the old Aesop’s fables, the way he would teach very powerful people lessons without insulting them, as he would tell a story about someone else who was fictional. Noah McNeely: They would maybe learn a lesson about. Noah McNeely: So sometimes I have to do that. Noah McNeely: And it comes along as, you know, I have to say, you know, look, I’m not into sales. Noah McNeely: I’m not into marketing. Noah McNeely: I design, build, and create stuff. Noah McNeely: I can help you fill a warehouse full of product. Noah McNeely: That’s no problem. Noah McNeely: We got that. Noah McNeely: What I can’t help you do is I can’t help you sell. Noah McNeely: I can’t help you market. Noah McNeely: I can tell you what I’ve seen other people do and what that’s cost them. Noah McNeely: And oftentimes that loan and going through that process is enough to help them realize, oh, I hadn’t thought about that. Noah McNeely: I hadn’t thought about that. Noah McNeely: I am going to need a budget for that. Noah McNeely: And so sometimes I approach it that way. Noah McNeely: Sometimes people come in and they do have a lot of really good business savvy, business knowledge, business experience. Noah McNeely: They understand that right up front. Noah McNeely: I have to do a lot less in those cases. Noah McNeely: Sometimes in those cases, it’s more about explaining why it costs so much to make this product or that product or whatever it is. Steven Julian: So let me just ask Noah McNeely, the Product Quick Start CEO and the guy who’s done this for more than a few years, although you only look like you’ve been doing it for a few years. Noah McNeely: Well, hair dye goes a long way. Steven Julian: Exactly. Steven Julian: And flattery will get me everywhere. Steven Julian: Do you enjoy to an extent when someone who’s just starting out in this, it’s their first idea, they’ve never run a business, but they’re receptive to your kind of expertise and guidance. Steven Julian: There’s that that’s satisfying. Steven Julian: As well as the satisfying of kind of someone with some business savvy who knows the business stuff and you don’t have to spend as much time on that and you can really just focus on. Steven Julian: the product development. Steven Julian: Is there a preference one where this is just a personal question I’m asking at this point? Noah McNeely: That is a very difficult question. Noah McNeely: Exactly. Steven Julian: I’m slightly annoyed. Noah McNeely: It’s very individual based. Steven Julian: This is a relational thing for you, right? Steven Julian: This is a relational business, even for you and this. Noah McNeely: I’ll put you this way. Noah McNeely: I’m at a point in my career, I’ve done this long enough, I don’t usually have to work with people I dislike. Noah McNeely: Now, I will do my best to help anyone. Noah McNeely: Even if I dislike you, I will try to point you in a good direction, sometimes to someone I don’t like, but also. Noah McNeely: They don’t know that. Noah McNeely: Yeah, they don’t know that. Noah McNeely: No, but either can be good. Noah McNeely: I think it’s better for me to answer this from the standpoint of what’s the worst type of relationship. Steven Julian: Oh, there we go. Noah McNeely: That’s where someone comes in and they’ve never developed a product before. Noah McNeely: They don’t know anything about it, but they saw something on TV. Noah McNeely: So now they’re an expert or they stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Noah McNeely: So now they’re an expert and they come in and they’re like, this is how you’re going to do it. Noah McNeely: This is how you’re going to do it. Noah McNeely: And I’m like, well, why are you here? Noah McNeely: How am I supposed to help you? Noah McNeely: You know everything already. Noah McNeely: Even though everything you just told me is completely wrong. Noah McNeely: I know you’ve read a book about it that some idiot wrote who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but that’s not how you do it. Noah McNeely: That’s not how the real world works. Noah McNeely: So those are not good relationships. Noah McNeely: Those usually end quickly. Noah McNeely: The other side of that is people that they just cannot accept what I’m telling them. Noah McNeely: So here’s the problem you have. Noah McNeely: And if you cannot solve this problem, You don’t have a business. Noah McNeely: Now, that’s just my opinion, but my opinion is based on a lot of experience, and some people just, they get really irritated about that, and I never hear from them again, and that’s probably for the best for me. Noah McNeely: But unfortunately, they then go out and they find an engineer who’s just happy to take their money, and they’ll spend a year. Noah McNeely: Dumping thousands of dollars into making something that they can never afford to produce or. Noah McNeely: that it’s never going to sell or it’s just the wrong market. Steven Julian: I like the way you answered that question. Steven Julian: Well done. Steven Julian: I asked a difficult question. Steven Julian: Noah gave a great answer to it. Steven Julian: So let me transition from the second question you asked of what can I sell. Steven Julian: And let’s kind of circle back real quick to that first question. Steven Julian: What can I get to the market with my resources? Steven Julian: This is a… Another way of kind of talking about minimum viable products. Steven Julian: So what do you need to know from the person that you’re talking to? Steven Julian: when it comes, because that word resources, let me unpack that just a little bit more. Steven Julian: You know, what can I get to the market with my resources? Steven Julian: You kind of need to know some things. Steven Julian: How much money do you have? Steven Julian: How much time do you have? Steven Julian: Kind of break that down. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I need them to be honest with themselves and with me.
Noah McNeely: Stuff costs what it costs. Noah McNeely: You know, I can’t work for free. Noah McNeely: Most people cannot. Noah McNeely: It doesn’t do you or me any good for you to come in and wear a fancy suit, pretend like you have. Noah McNeely: all this money, and then you don’t. Noah McNeely: Because then you and I are going to talk and go, hey, this is generally what this is going to cost. Noah McNeely: And you’re going to get one or two steps into that and say, oh, I can’t afford to go any further. Noah McNeely: Well, it’s like, well, why did you waste the money on the first two steps? Noah McNeely: I told you what it was going to cost to get this far. Noah McNeely: It’s like, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Well. Noah McNeely: I can’t refund your money. Noah McNeely: All the work is done. Noah McNeely: The prototypes are built. Noah McNeely: Whatever it is, that’s done. Noah McNeely: I’m sorry you can’t take it any further, but I don’t know what you want me to do. Noah McNeely: Go out and raise some money and come back in a few years, I guess. Noah McNeely: So that’s kind of the worst scenario there. Noah McNeely: I think I do need to do my best to explain to them, and I try my very best to this where I can. Noah McNeely: This is generally what it’s going to take. Noah McNeely: Hear what they’re trying to do. Noah McNeely: I’ll lay out a scope. Noah McNeely: Okay, the first phase is to get us to a prototype. Noah McNeely: I can give. Noah McNeely: that a pretty tight number. Noah McNeely: If there’s stuff in there, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Are we going to end up in this material or that material? Noah McNeely: Beyond that, I have to give an estimated range. Noah McNeely: And then I can give my best guess at what the manufacturing is going to cost. Noah McNeely: But I can’t, you know, obviously on day one, nothing’s been designed. Noah McNeely: So I don’t know exactly what that is going to cost at the back end. Noah McNeely: So I do my best to open their eyes to what the costs are going to be. Noah McNeely: And also a little bit, you know, you’re going to have to have money for marketing. Noah McNeely: If you’re going to do a patent, I’ll send them to Brock, who you may know from other shows. Noah McNeely: All that’s going to take money. Noah McNeely: You may have to prioritize what you want to spend your money on and how you want to spend it. Noah McNeely: And I think actually in our next episode, we have some ideas about that. Steven Julian: Ooh, fellow with a tease. Noah McNeely: A slight tease, yes. Noah McNeely: I like that. Steven Julian: Well done. Noah McNeely: I am not a radio professional. Steven Julian: You just played one on this podcast. Steven Julian: So let me just, again, push back slightly on the word resources. Steven Julian: So we are talking about money. Steven Julian: There’s no question. Steven Julian: that is the main. Noah McNeely: Not just money. Steven Julian: Well, that was my question. Steven Julian: Don’t take my question away from me. Steven Julian: You definitely are not a professional when you did that. Noah McNeely: Clearly not. Steven Julian: So apart from money, what other resources can people bring to the table that you need to know about that will help you in helping them develop their products? Steven Julian: See how I did that? Steven Julian: Was that good? Steven Julian: All right. Noah McNeely: Thank you. Noah McNeely: So you may have other resources in terms of people in your network. Noah McNeely: You know, if you come in and say, I have this great idea and it’s for, you know, baseball players and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Noah McNeely: And okay, that’s great. Noah McNeely: But you don’t tell me, oh, and by the way, my cousin plays Major League Baseball. Noah McNeely: Well, you know, that’s a resource that we could know about. Noah McNeely: that can actually change my mind about how you would market this. Noah McNeely: Oh, well, maybe you don’t need all this money for marketing because your cousin can endorse it. Noah McNeely: Well, that may change what I advise you. Noah McNeely: on. Noah McNeely:
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