Product Genius, the Podcast for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and Startups
Honest advice for inventors—with obscure cultural references included at no extra charge.
Episode
234
Small-Scale Manufacturing with 3D Printing – ZLabs3D
Can 3D printing be more than a prototyping tool and actually manufacture your invention? Noah and Steven sit down with Michael and Allison Zhu of ZLabs3D to explore small-scale 3D printing manufacturing for inventors, startups, and niche product businesses. From producing 40-unit batches for specialized aviation products to running more than 80 FDM printers and roughly 10,000 parts per month, they discuss when additive manufacturing makes sense, when injection molding becomes the better move, how modern printers have improved, and why owning one desktop printer is very different from running a production operation. If you need to launch without expensive tooling or a warehouse full of inventory, this episode may change how you think about manufacturing.
Core Topics for this episode:
- Manufacturing
- Prototyping
Key Takeaways Include:
Listen here:
Episode Blog
Small-Scale Manufacturing With 3D Printing: When the Prototype Becomes the Product
For years, inventors have been told that 3D printing is great for prototypes.
Print a part. Test it. Break it. Change the CAD. Print another one. Repeat until the design works.
That is still one of the most valuable uses of additive manufacturing—but it is no longer the whole story.
In this episode of Product Genius, Noah McNeely and Steven Julian sit down with Michael and Allison Zhu of ZLabs3D, a high-throughput FDM 3D-printing operation in the Atlanta area, to explore an increasingly important option for inventor entrepreneurs: using 3D printing as the actual manufacturing process.
For the right product, the prototype does not necessarily have to graduate to injection molding.
Sometimes it can simply become production.
When Does 3D Printing Make Sense for Manufacturing?
Traditional manufacturing rewards volume.
Injection molding is a perfect example. Once the tooling exists, producing thousands of plastic parts can become extremely economical.
The problem is the phrase “once the tooling exists.”
Injection molds can require substantial upfront investment. For an inventor who has not yet proven demand—or whose market may only require dozens or hundreds of units—that investment can be difficult to justify.
3D printing changes the equation.
There is no conventional production mold to build.
That means a company may be able to manufacture:
- 10 units
- 50 units
- 100 units
- A few hundred units
- Small recurring batches
without committing to thousands of pieces of inventory.
For a startup, niche product, specialized industrial application, or evolving design, that flexibility can be enormously valuable.
Small Markets Can Be Good Markets
Allison describes a client developing specialized electronic enclosures used in an aviation-related application.
The product is not destined for every household in America.
There are only so many airports.
That means the customer may need only 40 or 50 units at a time.
Traditional injection molding might make little sense at that volume, especially while the design is still evolving.
3D printing allows the customer to manufacture useful production quantities without pretending the market is larger than it really is.
That is an important entrepreneurial lesson.
A small market is not automatically a bad market.
If the economics work, a niche product can be a very good business.
The manufacturing method simply needs to match the opportunity.
Production Without a Warehouse Full of Inventory
Inventory is one of the quiet risks of launching a physical product.
The lower unit price of a large production run can be seductive.
Why buy 500 pieces when 5,000 are cheaper per unit?
Because you still have to sell the other 4,500.
Small-scale additive manufacturing allows entrepreneurs to think differently about inventory.
Instead of purchasing a huge batch and hoping demand appears, a business may be able to manufacture closer to actual demand.
That can reduce:
- Cash tied up in inventory
- Storage requirements
- Obsolescence risk
- Exposure to design changes
- The financial damage of overestimating demand
For early-stage companies, paying more per unit can sometimes produce a healthier business because far less money is trapped on the shelf.
You Can Keep Changing the Product
One of the most powerful advantages of 3D-printed manufacturing is that the design can continue evolving.
With traditional tooling, a significant design change may require modifying or replacing the mold.
With 3D printing, the manufacturing data is digital.
Change the CAD.
Update the print file.
Produce the next version.
That can be particularly valuable for specialized products where customer feedback continues to shape the design.
The aviation enclosure discussed in the episode is a good example. The customer is still adjusting the internal arrangement of circuit boards, electronics, lights, and other components.
If that product had already been locked into expensive tooling, each meaningful change could become painful.
With additive manufacturing, iteration and production can overlap.
That gives a startup room to learn.
3D Printing Can Make Geometry Traditional Molding Cannot
Injection molding is powerful, but it comes with rules.
Parts generally need appropriate draft.
Undercuts can create tooling complications.
Geometry has to allow the molded part to release from the tool.
Wall thickness, parting lines, gates, ejector locations, and other manufacturing considerations influence the design.
FDM printing has its own limitations, of course.
Supports, layer orientation, surface finish, print time, strength direction, and post-processing all matter.
But the limitations are different.
That means additive manufacturing can create certain geometries that would be extremely difficult—or impossible—to produce as a conventional single molded plastic part.
For some products, that design freedom is not merely convenient.
It can become part of the competitive advantage.
3D Printing and Injection Molding Can Work Together
This does not mean inventors have to choose one manufacturing process forever.
3D printing can be a bridge.
An entrepreneur might:
Prototype with 3D printing.
Launch with 3D printing.
Produce the first few hundred or few thousand units with 3D printing.
Validate demand.
Continue improving the design.
Then move to injection molding once the volume justifies the tooling.
That sequence can reduce risk dramatically.
It also means the first customers may be helping validate the product while the business is already generating revenue.
Later, when demand becomes predictable enough, the company can invest in tooling with much more confidence.
The right manufacturing process can change as the business grows.
Industrial 3D Printing Is More Than Owning a Printer
Modern consumer printers have become remarkably capable.
Michael explains that machines from companies such as Bambu Lab and Creality can be dramatically easier to use than earlier generations of desktop printers.
Automatic bed leveling and other calibration features remove much of the manual tinkering once required.
That accessibility is good news for inventors who want to experiment at home.
But owning one good printer is not the same thing as operating a production facility.
Manufacturing requires more than pressing Print.
Parts have to be sliced correctly.
Printers need maintenance.
Filament needs to be managed.
Failed prints create scrap.
Parts must be removed.
Supports may need to be removed.
Quality needs to remain consistent.
Multiple machines need to produce repeatable results.
And when orders grow, somebody has to manage all of it.
ZLabs3D operates more than 80 printers and produces roughly 10,000 parts per month. At that scale, efficiency, workflow, data, machine uptime, and repeatability become manufacturing problems rather than hobby-printer problems.
That distinction matters.
Your Basement Printer Farm Is Still a Factory
An inventor may begin by producing a product at home.
That can be an excellent way to start.
One ZLabs3D customer originally ran several printers himself and carefully tuned the process to get the results he wanted.
Eventually, however, growth created a new problem.
Producing everything personally became a job.
Outsourcing allowed him to move much of the manufacturing burden to ZLabs3D while continuing to manage his business.
That transition is worth anticipating.
If your product succeeds, do you want your long-term job to be:
Changing filament?
Removing parts from build plates?
Clearing failed prints?
Maintaining printers?
Packing orders?
Maybe you do.
But if the business grows, your time may become more valuable elsewhere.
Manufacturing capacity is not only about machines.
It is also about what the founder should be spending time doing.
Slicing Should Be a Science, Not an Art
One of the most interesting technical discussions in the episode involves slicing.
Before an FDM printer can make a part, the 3D model has to be processed by slicer software.
The user decides—or helps the software decide—how the part should be oriented, where supports should go, what layer settings to use, how much infill is appropriate, and numerous other variables.
Noah points out that this still requires more judgment and trial-and-error than he would like.
His teenage daughter can reasonably ask:
“How did you know to do that?”
And sometimes the answer is essentially:
Experience. Or because the last print turned out badly.
Allison describes the same frustration among ZLabs3D’s experienced printer technicians.
Their phrase is excellent:
Slicing should not be an art. It should be a science.
The future opportunity is smarter software that can analyze a model, predict problems, recommend orientation and support strategies, and make successful printing more repeatable.
The printers themselves have become much smarter.
The software still has room to catch up.
Should an Inventor Buy a 3D Printer?
For inventors who want to experiment themselves, Michael points to popular FDM brands such as Bambu Lab and Creality.
The important lesson, however, is not simply which brand to buy.
There is a tradeoff between ease of use and understanding.
A more automated machine can remove much of the upfront knowledge required to get a successful print.
That is fantastic—until something breaks.
Then the user may discover that the machine is still a complex piece of equipment.
Allison compares giving a sophisticated printer to someone with no technical foundation to giving a laser to a five-year-old.
It may work exactly as intended.
Until it doesn’t.
If you want to become deeply involved in your own additive manufacturing, learning how the machine actually works has value.
If you simply need parts, outsourcing may be the better use of your time.
Use the Cheapest Prototype That Answers the Question
Another useful point from Allison is how ZLabs3D approaches prototypes.
If a client needs only to test fit, they generally recommend the fastest and least expensive option that answers that question.
If the prototype needs to withstand torque, impact, heat, or other loads, material and process decisions become more important.
That is good product-development discipline.
A prototype is an experiment.
Its job is to answer a question.
If the question is “Does this fit?”, you may not need the strongest, prettiest, most expensive version.
If the question is “Will this survive repeated impacts?”, then strength matters.
Do not overbuild the experiment.
Build what you need to learn what you need to learn.
Know When You Need Professional CAD
3D printers manufacture digital geometry.
That means somebody still has to create the geometry.
If an inventor already has a usable digital model, the path to printing can be relatively straightforward.
If the invention exists only as a sketch, a paper-towel-tube prototype, or a collection of household objects taped together, someone has to translate the concept into engineering data.
ZLabs3D does some modeling and reverse engineering, but Allison explains that the company has increasingly focused on manufacturing and may refer more complex product-development work to specialists such as Product QuickStart.
That is an important distinction for inventors.
A 3D printing company and a product-development company do different things.
The printer cannot decide how your invention should work.
Good engineering comes first.
Then the manufacturing process turns that engineering into parts.
The Product Genius Take
3D printing has grown far beyond the novelty stage.
For inventors, it remains one of the most powerful prototyping tools ever created.
But for the right business, it can also be the factory.
If your market is small, your design is still evolving, your geometry is difficult to mold, or you simply are not ready to invest in tooling and thousands of units of inventory, small-scale additive manufacturing deserves serious consideration.
Start with the manufacturing method that fits the business you have today.
If sales grow enough to justify injection molding later, fantastic.
You can change processes.
But do not spend $20,000 on tooling and fill a warehouse merely because that is what “real manufacturing” is supposed to look like.
Sometimes the smartest factory is 80 robots quietly printing parts in Peachtree Corners.
And apparently, every once in a while, one of those parts is a bag of something we cannot print in the episode title.
Or, read the full transcript here:
Steven Julian
Is your product-based business ready for small-scale manufacturing? Then you're probably ready to look into the world of 3D printing. 3D printers is something that everybody has heard about. Very few people understand it. Well, today we've got two leaders from one of the biggest 3D printing resource companies in America. next on Product Genius.
Allison Zhu
Do you want to be a successful inventor entrepreneur? Struggling to get your product from idea to market? Well, you've come to the right place. Welcome to Product Genius, the down-to-earth podcast that explores important topics about inventing and launching new products. Noah McNeely is your trusted guide. With more than 20 years of product launch experience, he's here to help you on your journey to become a product genius. Let's get started. Here's your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian.
Steven Julian
Yet again, that's my line. Yes, it is your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian. Welcome to another, maybe one day soon, and maybe if we buy the award ourselves and create it ourselves, award-winning edition of Product Genius. To my right, the intrepid producer, Jody Smith, across the table from me is the wonderful host, the man who makes all of this possible. Giving us. the layer, letting us do the show, and being the guy who helps people develop their product and bring it to market. He is one of the geniuses of Product Genius.
Noah McNeely.
Noah McNeely
Well, good afternoon.
Steven Julian
Good afternoon. It is afternoon as we record this.
Noah McNeely
It's afternoon here, and it's probably afternoon somewhere.
Steven Julian
It's always afternoon somewhere.
Noah McNeely
That's true.
Steven Julian
The other thing that I believe is a first in the last relaunch of this show. We have guests in the studio.
Noah McNeely
Yeah.
Steven Julian
I think I'm correct in that. I'm turning to the producer. This is the first time. No, it's not. Okay. The second time.
Noah McNeely
They were brave enough to let us blindfold them and lead them into the lair.
Steven Julian
That's right. The first guest was the former host of the show. Yes. Tiffany Krumman. And her father. Yes. Shout out Tiffany. Opu Probiotics. As of the recording of this show, launched their new. Launch their new warehouse space. That's right. So we're very excited about that.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, I actually helped them build a sign for that.
Steven Julian
Yeah, very nice. So go to Opu Probiotics and get your order today. But no, we have actual guests. See, that's my point. Okay, Jody was being a producer and doing well. We are excited and thrilled to welcome into the lair of Product Quick Start and on to the show of Product Genius, Michael and Allison Zhu of Z Labs 3D. Guys, welcome to the studio. Sup. Sup. All right. Well, that's it. Okay. That was Michael and Allison. We'll catch you next time. Michael and Allison, you guys are the owners of Zlabs 3D.
Michael, why don't you tell us what Zlabs is and what you guys do?
Michael Zhu
We're one of the largest FDM3 print shops in the Southeast. We have about 86 printers at the moment, and we're heavily data-driven. Try to make the whole entire process as efficient as possible, whether it's for our clients, brokers that we work with, things like that.
Steven Julian
Allison, who are some of the main people that come to Z Labs and give a little sample maybe of the spectrum of the types of jobs that you're doing, both small and large? Be creative in your answer of the spectrum of what you guys can do for people.
Allison Zhu
I'll be real honest with you. It's all walks of life and all types of people. So, I mean, we get big boys that rhyme with like Bamazon and Nesma.
Steven Julian
Wait a minute. I need a second on that. Oh, okay. I think I know who you're talking about.
Allison Zhu
But then we get little guys, you know, we get some dude from the internet that we don't have a face for and it's... About as absurd and horrible as you can imagine.
Noah McNeely
3D printing. I can imagine quite a lot.
Steven Julian
And 3D printing is one of those things where it's been around for a little while and it was this cool thing that made everybody remember their favorite things on Star Trek, food replicators and things like that. But what are some of the uses that businesses are – and Noah, you've talked about it in terms of prototypes. That's one of the main things in product development. But what are some of the main uses? like some of those companies like – Amazon and the internet guys. What are the main uses? people or just, again, spectrum of uses people are coming to you for?
Allison Zhu
So I'd say probably one of the more common things that we see from all different types of larger companies. is we'll do a lot of jigs and PETG, you know, things for assembling cars and lining things up and then they snap it off and put in whatever is supposed to be behind it, you know. We get plugs and gaskets and different types of materials for assembly or sometimes permanent fixtures. Like I know we do some crop dusting stuff and it's just a plug that stays on the end of something. We get cases for smoking paraphernalia pretty frequently, actually.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, me too.
Allison Zhu
Yeah, it's a saturated market, but it's a lucrative one for some of our drop shipping clients. And then we get, you know, like bag of ****, you know, all the time.
Steven Julian
As much as I want to go down that path.
Allison Zhu
I have a picture if you want.
Noah McNeely
Not necessary. We'll do that off air. That is one of those rare products I have never worked on.
Allison Zhu
Yes.
Steven Julian
Me neither. And as an independent financial advisor in my day job, they have not yet IPO'd. So glad to say that. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Michael, how did you guys find your way into this? What were you doing? That? led into you getting involved in 3D printing.
Michael Zhu
So I was working for something Black & Decker at the time. And essentially, there was a project that I was working on that required an adapter that didn't exist. And instead of paying like thousands and thousands of dollars to get one single piece made, it was in 2014, towards the end of 2014. I saw that there were 3D printers and I was like, oh yeah, I saw something on Facebook about that back when Facebook was cool. So I got one, put the machine together and made the adapter. And then I guess everyone at the company huddled around and just saw this little machine sitting on my cabinet.
And everyone started like, oh, you're the 3D printing guy now. Random things, hooked a printer home, started printing all the stuff that people wanted me to, and then it kind of just grew into this vacationing now. Wow.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, and I think that's actually, Michael and I met years ago, probably when you were just starting that out, and I was just starting Product Quickstart at the time, and I think you printed something for me, and then we, maybe over the years, we've done other things through one of these brokers we talked about, maybe. We're not going to mention who they are for various reasons. But we kind of lost track of each other for a long time. And we reconnected recently. And it was really cool for me to go from knowing this guy who had a 3D printer, I think it was in your basement or whatever, to our spare bedroom.
So then I came and actually toured your shop a few weeks ago. And there's like machines everywhere, all sorts of machines doing all sorts of things. It's like, you know, it's like a sweatshop, but it's all robots. Pretty amazing thing. And you've got a team of actual human beings too. They're all really cool guys. It's nice to meet them as well.
Michael Zhu
Very passionate people.
Noah McNeely
I mean, you guys were said you are one of the largest FDM type 3D printing outfits in the country, right?
Michael Zhu
Definitely the largest.
Allison Zhu
I don't know if we have the most number of machines. We don't have the most number of machines, but I can confidently say we're the highest throughput, like one of the highest. throughputs.
Noah McNeely
You produce the most parts then, which is kind of more important, right? Yeah.
Allison Zhu
Yeah. It's probably at least 10,000 parts a month and there are all different sizes and shapes and stuff.
Noah McNeely
So I walk through there and all these machines are running. They're all making sort of all sorts of stuff. And I think because you guys are so big, that gets you into some of the stuff you were talking about. that's so diverse. And you mentioned things I never even thought about using 3D paint for just hearing this conversation. Well, not bag of ****.
Allison Zhu
I think that's the first idea for Buzz people.
Steven Julian
I know what the intro is going to be. Noah, I want to ask you, we'll have to be bleeped again on our intro. That's going to be blag of beeps. So Noah, I want to ask you, you know, you have, I want to bring you into this conversation rather than you asking them a question. I want you to answer the question of.
Noah McNeely
No, instead of you asking another stupid question.
Steven Julian
That's not what I said. When people are developing their product, what are the main reasons why someone? would use a 3D printer? You've talked about prototypes. What are some of the other things that 3D printing really is changing the game in terms of developing products?
Noah McNeely
Prototyping is how I've, until recently, kind of always looked at it. It's like, okay, well, 3D printer is great because I don't have to go run the CNC machine and spend... As Michael was saying, thousands of dollars to make this one-off thing, a 3D printer. You can make a thing, you can break it, you can make another one, you can adjust it, you can make another one. So that's how I've looked at things. But more recently, and actually through conversations with Michael and Allison, I've come to realize there are people that use 3D printing really as their manufacturing process, especially if they're a smaller company or maybe.
They're just starting out. And this is something I really not thought about from that perspective until recently.
Steven Julian
Yeah. So Michael and Allison, have you worked with – and again, you can change the names to protect the innocent or promote them because they're good clients and you want to shout them out. So have you guys had any? product developers or people who maybe it's their first run or maybe they might not need to go to the next level past 3D printing that they are actually – and you kind of talked about parts. You've talked about caps and certain parts on certain things. But has somebody – You've been using your services to actually do the actual manufacturing of almost the entire product that they're selling on market.
Allison Zhu
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've got one guy, he's one of the smoking case guys, and he's a very loyal customer. We've been working with him for about three years now, actually. And it took us a while to kind of rise to his expectations because he was printing at home on like probably five or six printers. When you're doing it yourself and you don't think about scrap rates and other people doing things on their machines differently than how you're doing it, it can be a little bit of pushback between a manufacturer like us.
A do-it-yourselfer because you've kind of spent all of that time up front to dial in settings and get it just right. But then it's like asking a manufacturer to step. in and read your mind sometimes. But yeah, we produce a lot of his product line. He still produces some at home and he'll keep inventory for that purpose. But he outsources just about everything. He doesn't even see the product that we ship to his customers unless they send him feedback.
Steven Julian
Let me ask this as a follow-up question too, and this is a little bit of looking into the future or also looking into the future of your company. As you look at the markets around you and as you look at the world around you, what is not yet really looking to 3D printing to help their business that you would go, boy, we could really help? Because it does seem like, and I loved your randomness, Allison, as you were answering the question before of this little cap and, okay, I'll say it too, a whole bag of ****.
So what – we've all now said it except for Jody who will put it on the tagline or something. But are there certain types of things – because it just seems so eclectic and it just seems like there's so much. But is there anything you're? like, you know, I would like a lawn mowing company to call me because, boy, I could really help with this. Is there anything you see that – We want to get involved in this because we see such an opportunity for us to do some production for you guys.
Michael Zhu
Gosh, that's hard.
Steven Julian
That's a good question or a hard question.
Michael Zhu
That's really, like, if you can think about it.
Steven Julian
Yeah, if you can dream it, you can do it.
Michael Zhu
Yeah, I mean, that's part of the, one of the strengths of 3D printing, especially FDM, which you can make functional parts out of. You can make these things that are, like, you only need, like, 100 units or just for, like, a very small niche. But you know it will serve them well.
Steven Julian
That's what this is for. So I'm going to bring an example and you guys tell me if I'm crazy.
Noah McNeely
So one of my – Well, you might be – We all know.
Steven Julian
We all know. I know.
Noah McNeely
I know. You need to separate those two elements.
Steven Julian
I'm going to give you an example of something that just came into my mind. I know I'm crazy. You can either agree with the fact that I'm crazy according to Noah. Or you can go, no, I could see it. So one of my favorite people to follow online is Mike Rowe, which shows my age because I still think Facebook, it's not cool, but it is useful for people my age. But Mike Rowe is such an interesting character and he's so diverse and all that. And one of the things, he at one point wanted to do a bobblehead and he wanted to promote Made in the USA and he actually priced it out.
Now, this is like 10 years ago. And he was like, I literally cannot produce a bobblehead. On American soil, I have to farm it out. And, you know, he did some other things and, you know, so, but he has found other things to do. So I'm looking at something like a bobblehead. Could a short run bobblehead run be done on a 3D printer and added the coil? Is that so? you could be like, hey, just to make my own bobblehead or just to make a small batch or maybe even a large batch is creating a bobblehead, creating. the pieces of a bobblehead.
Is that something that could be done on a 3D printer?
Michael Zhu
It absolutely can, especially if it's a resin printer. That's actually what they're good with is for those display type things like a bobblehead like you were talking about.
Steven Julian
So a Noah McNeely Product Genius bobblehead can be done in the works.
Allison Zhu
It wouldn't be as durable as a traditional bobblehead. Exactly.
Steven Julian
That's the only big difference. Yeah. Okay.
Michael Zhu
It's also more cost effective for, you know, it's like you said, like, it's like, it's like I said earlier as limited runs of things. Yes. Yeah. Definitely very strong.
Steven Julian
It would be durable enough to shake it a little bit. Yeah. But if you drop it on the floor, yeah, it might be done.
Allison Zhu
Right. Okay.
Steven Julian
Thank you for, thank you for producing some boundaries on my, on my dream. Noah. Ask a fantastic question.
Noah McNeely
Well, I had some until you said that. So I actually wrote down some questions, fortunately, so that when you sideswiped me with that, I was going to be ready. So if we talk about 3D printing as manufacturing, who, and you kind of answered this already, so who? is... 3D printing a good manufacturing solution for? And who's it not good for? What's that transition point? I think this is one of the things we've talked about. is you've got some clients who are like, you know, you're kind of pushing the limits of it's time to look at other solutions.
How do you find that? What's that look like?
Michael Zhu
It really depends. It really depends on what they're looking for and the product that they're trying to sell.
Allison Zhu
I think it might be better to talk about good examples of customers, most likely. So, I mean, if you're talking about like a business, you know, usually it's when you're still having a relatively small number of sales, you know, or you don't have room to hold a lot of inventory depending on what you're working with. Like we have an active client right now where they're making these fancy boxes for the inside of an airplane that I don't really know exactly what it does because we aren't privy to that information on the prototyping side.
But I know he's fitting a bunch of boards and electronics and lights and stuff in there. And so we've been. going through that iterative process with him, printing out new versions of the file every time he makes a revision to fit something in properly. And he's not ready for like thousands of units because... It's getting sold to airports and there's just not that many airports. So his market, like in terms of number of clients that are in the market to serve, is limited compared to other markets. So he only needs like 40 or 50 units at a time.
But, you know, when you think about how much would it cost for that to go overseas to an injection, you know, he's not ready for it. Sure.
Noah McNeely
Especially if he's making changes.
Allison Zhu
Yeah, exactly.
Noah McNeely
And evolving the versions.
Allison Zhu
Yep.
Noah McNeely
And second question or core aware, addition. Additional question. 3D printing lets you make things that you really can't make with injection molding in some cases. Like with injection molding, you know, if we're going to go out and make 5,000 or something in injection molding, I have to design that part to have draft and to have, no, what we call undercuts and all these sort of things. But in 3D printing, you don't have, you have. some other limitations, but you don't have a lot of those limitations. So you can actually make.
What would once have been an impossible part in plastic and ABS or PETG or whatever, right?
Allison Zhu
Yeah, actually, I would say that 3D printing is a good companion with injection because a lot of times the designs, especially for larger objects, the designs that are suited for injection are less suited for FDM printing because it creates a little bit of a logistical nightmare in supporting and removing and post-processing.
Noah McNeely
Yeah. Probably parts I've sent you. Yeah. We're used to it though. Because a lot of times, you know, I'm designing for injection molding, but we're not ready to make them all. Exactly. So, you know, I sent you a whole bunch recently, which turned out great. And we're assembling that now, but I can. I have 3D printers here, nothing like what you guys have, but I was like, yeah, I don't want to make this here because pulling the supports off, that's going to take me all day. So I put that off on you guys and thank you.
Allison Zhu
It's okay.
Steven Julian
We're speaking with Michael and Allison Zhu. They are. with Z Labs 3D. They have over 80 printers. Allison stated with a lot of confidence that as of this recording, you are leading the nation in basically output of what you're doing or throughput, as you said. So here's the question I want to ask. 3D printers have been around. Michael, you shared the story of kind of getting started about 10, 11 years ago, just kind of fiddling with one. And so with my day job of what I do, it was this massive 3D printers are here.
They're going to take over the world. They're going to be amazing. Everybody's going to have one on their desk. And then it kind of went quiet, although it didn't go quiet in what you guys do. It did not go quiet in the product development world. So here's what I want to ask. From the first day that somebody first heard of a 3D printer, what has changed for the better in the printers you guys have and what they're able to do now? Then where they started when somebody last read an article in Barron's or, you know, Tech World and saw the, oh, and everybody talked about, you know, how has it developed to this point?
Or are they just kind of the same as they've been, but just a little bit? But yeah, so there have been some major changes. Talk about how 3D printers have improved to this point.
Michael Zhu
I mean, back then, 3D printers used to be fully manual. If the bed's out of alignment, you had to adjust everything about it. And there's a bolt that's just off a little bit. You have to take it apart completely just to fix that one bolt. Things were very much, had to be almost perfect. Where now, printers nowadays, such as the Bamboo Lab printers, they could compensate with a lot of the imperfections. They could come out of the factory with the bed slightly skewed. Because they have automatic leveling, things like that, they're able to adjust on the fly.
So basically when you turn it on, it can just calibrate everything.
Steven Julian
So a little self-diagnostic ability and therefore higher output. So Allison, I'm going to ask you this question. It's an incredibly unfair question. So you can yell or curse at me if you'd like when I ask this question. So Michael kind. of answered how they've improved to this point. Can you look ahead? Can you make any kind of predictions of? Where do 3D – or maybe just let me ask it this way. As someone who's using 3D printers as your business to help other businesses, what needs to be developed in 3D printing?
What's around the corner? What are you hoping? will the next generation or two generations or further down the line that 3D printers can do? Is it using more products and using more elements in what it can print? But what are some of those – what are the answers to that? And Noah, I'm going to ask you the same question as someone who uses it on a smaller scale.
Allison Zhu
As someone who is the only person in our building who doesn't actually use a 3D printer, I think I'm the best person for this.
Steven Julian
I love it.
Allison Zhu
Looking at trends and looking at the way that the home 3D printer market is changing because we get a lot of customers that have their own printers and we answer a lot of questions from people. 3D printing is getting more accessible to the average consumer, which transfers to... Some R&D guy in a business. Usually there's just one. If you're lucky, you have a couple of them, you know. But with that being said, the only way for mass manufacturing to really keep up is to be able to go bigger than the home printer, to be able to go faster than the home printer, which they are getting really fast.
It's crazy. So I think the way I see it going is bigger and faster, you know.
Steven Julian
Michael, as the person who uses the 3D, or who's put them together and taken them apart, would you agree with that answer? And would you add anything to that?
Michael Zhu
I'm not sure about really the faster portion of it, more just removing the remaining limitations. It doesn't matter which kind of 3D printer it is, it's just removing the limitations that they have.
Steven Julian
That was a very engineering answer. Did you notice that?
Noah McNeely
Yeah, I like Michael a lot. And you noticed earlier. he said it depends. That's like my favorite answer.
Steven Julian
Yes. So Noah, would you add anything? What would you like? 3D printers? Sorry, I cut you off there, Michael.
Noah McNeely
So as someone that uses 3D printers, but not nearly to the extent that Michael and Allison have optimized, for me, The part of the process that I would love to see improved is the sort of upfront prep process, what they call the slicer software, where you take your model you've made in 3D CAD and you export it to this other software package. And I think it's getting better. And you guys maybe use stuff that's better than what I use, but you have to set the file up the right way. You kind of have to do a little trial and error to understand, okay, how...
What type of support should I use? How should I angle this part to minimize that and make sure they're going to come out? Well, how am I going to get the best finish on this part? You kind of have to figure a lot of that out on your own. I'd love to see the intelligence of that software get to the point where it's easier for a layperson to use. Actually, one of my old 3D printers, I told you guys, I've given to my teenage daughter, and I'm teaching her how to. use Cura, which is one of the slicer softwares, and it's fine.
A lot of times she asks questions like, well, how do you know to do this and how do you know to do that? Well, sometimes I just have to print it and see how bad it turns out, you know? And that's not ideal, but I'm hoping that... That intelligence will improve every time.
Allison Zhu
I love that you bring that up, too. So we have daily meetings with our printer techs. We have two printer techs working underneath Michael, and I just sit in for funsies. And one of the biggest gripes that these two very talented gentlemen always bring up is slicing shouldn't be an art. It should be a science. And turning it into something that's methodical and reproducible with good recommendations by a piece of software, ideally. That is where the big hurdle is, I think.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, it would be great if, even if it would just sort of yell at me that, hey, you sure you want to print it this way, doofus? Because this is what's probably going to happen here. You know, that would be helpful.
Steven Julian
I think we found a, I think we found a industry scoop around 3D printing as we've sat around here talking around the table. So I guess Michael and Allison, let me ask you this question. And Noah, I am going to come to you because I kind of wanted to start this question with you, but I'm going to ask them first. And again, this might be a question. Really, I'm on a quest now to see if you guys will curse me out or get mad at me. I don't think I will.
I think it's a fairly decent question. So again, as a reminder, most of our listenership are people who are trying to bring their product to market. If they have never used a 3D printer to this point, it's still an idea. It's still something they're just kind of doodling on a napkin or whatever. Can you walk me through the experience of what, you know, what would someone's experience be in coming into Z Labs 3D? They're still in the idea stage. or it's someone who's trying to get their manufacturing off the ground or they're looking to find this one part.
I'll give you a little bit of. leeway on that, but what will they experience if they, you know, if they... I don't know if you take retail off the street, but just kind of walk me through the process. Hey, I've never worked with you guys before. What can I expect in working with you? And Noah, I've got a different question for you. I got this, I guess. Yeah, this sounds like more up your alley.
Allison Zhu
Yeah, I do most of our intake and our customer facing, so I'm definitely the person.
Steven Julian
Hi, welcome to Z Labs 3D. How can I help you?
Allison Zhu
Essentially, yeah. No, I mean, honestly, if they've already got... A digital model, that makes things easier across the board. But if they're still in that shower thought phase where they have maybe a jerry-rigged physical prototype that they've made from a paper towel tube or some random stuff they found around the house, that gets a bit more challenging.
Noah McNeely
You've met some of my clients.
Allison Zhu
Oh, yes. So, I mean, it depends. I will stick with that answer. It does depend. But if they've already got a model or at least some measurements so that we can quickly capture. It's pretty. straightforward for us. We plug it into the software and then make the digital if we need to. But if it's really advanced and it might not be the fastest modeling job, we try to outsource that possibly to Product Quick Start or other designers, depending on the scope. Pretty much don't ask a lot of questions, honestly. We figure out, okay, does it have a use case we need to know about?
Should it be durable? Does it have to withstand certain types of forces like torque or impact, things like that? If it's really just for fitment, then we typically push for the cheapest, quickest option because it is a simple prototype.
Steven Julian
And I'm going to jump on that. That's a great explanation of somebody who comes in with an idea. Talk also about the business owner who, hey, I need to create a cap to go over this hole in my product. So talk about that. They've got a product, and you kind of talked about it. That's one of your main things is, hey, fabrication of one part. What does that look like? They just come in with stuff and, I need help. We're getting this. to not leak.
Allison Zhu
Yeah. I mean, we do a little bit of reverse engineering right now. Michael's the guy that does that. So with that being said, since he's also a business owner. He doesn't have as much time to do that as we'd like. We recently actually kind of focused our business more towards the manufacturing and away from the design work. So you'll be seeing more of our clients for that reason.
Noah McNeely
Send them with the paper towel tubes. Yes. I love to meet people with paper towel tubes.
Allison Zhu
Once we can get them from like the help, I need the reverse engineering, or I need this thing made, then that's when once we have that digital asset, or at least we have them to a point where it's more easy to create and it's more. Then that's when we get in and we're like, okay, here's our recommendations on production.
Steven Julian
Noah, now I'm going to turn to you for a second. And one of the things you are so patient with me about on this show is I've never brought any product to market. I'm just a financial advisor by day who loves to flap my gums. and really enjoys your dry sense of humor. So with that as a backdrop, I have this picture in my mind that you're working with clients who Almost view, like have never used a 3D printer before and you're going to involve that in the prototyping or whatever, look and develop the product.
And I think there's almost this view of the general public that 3D printers are magic. We're just a step away from Star Trek where it can just appear out of nothing. So am I wrong in that? Am I naive?
Noah McNeely
Well, my clients come, there's a wide spectrum of understanding of the real world. It ranges from the, hey, I watched Iron Man and he made an Iron Man suit with a 3D printer and lasers in like 12 minutes. Can you do that? Nope. Can't do that.
Steven Julian
That was a montage.
Noah McNeely
All the way to the other end of the spectrum where people have self-educated on YouTube. And they're coming in and it's like, hey, I bought this printer and it does this and this and they're teaching me stuff. So there's a wide range of people out there. What was the question?
Steven Julian
Well, I. really wanted to just pontificate about that. So I was going to ask you, how has the 3D printer, because you, again, you said, I have a couple of them. I have a few of them. How has it changed? the product development? Process for the, with, as you're working with your clients and, and how do you, you know, how do you see it continuing or growing or kind of staying right where it's at?
Noah McNeely
So I see, and actually I'm going to have a version of this question for Allison and Michael too, but what I've seen, the first 3D printer I had was a pain in the neck to use. I hated using it. It was one of these very manual things and it's sitting in my basement in pieces right now and it will never be put back together. But as things have evolved, it used to like way back in the day, you could buy a Stratasys machine like $25,000 or whatever. And it was really good.
It did most of the stuff. It's not near as good as the $600 machine I could buy today in a lot of ways, you know, in terms. of no worries about it just doing what it's supposed to do. For me, as someone that uses 3D printing as a, hey, rapidly make it, break it, make it, break it kind of a deal, it's just gotten much easier to use. And that evolution has continued. But as I alluded to earlier, there's still things that as the cutting edge of it continues to expand, there are things that I would not want to attempt that I would go to Zlabs 3D to do.
I think that's always going to be the case because some of the more basic elements of 3D printing have become increasingly commoditized and accessible. You can Amazon, you buy a 3D printer, but that's one of the questions I want to ask you guys in a minute.
Steven Julian
Oh, Allison likes that question.
Noah McNeely
Well, now there's two questions. And one of them is please tell me the stories. So it's become more commoditized.
Steven Julian
It's not a question. That's a declarative statement.
Noah McNeely
I will. Go ahead. Raise it in the phone.
Steven Julian
I apologize. Now I've just, I've ruined your thought again. You have.
Noah McNeely
So it's become more commoditized and easier to use. However, you go. out and you buy the $120 3D printer, it's still going to be a pain in the neck to use in my experience. So it's just not worth it. Not worth your time. Now the question I was going to ask, but now the second question is, please tell me, what are some of your stories in the form of a question? But the question I was going to ask is, Obviously, there are people, clients that come to you, come to me that are like, they just want us to do everything, which is fine.
That's great. But there are a lot of clients who are like, I want to do a lot of this on my own. I want to learn how to do it on my own. So to those clients, what would you advise them to, what is a brand of 3D printer or a model or general range that you advise? Hey, start here. Don't buy anything cheaper than this because you're just going to pull your hair out. You don't want anything more expensive than this because you're just not at that point. And also, what kind of software do you recommend, do you? guys recommend they get on the CAD side to kind of build their early ideas?
Now, obviously, they're not going to the depth you and I would go to of making, manufacturing, etc. This is just for them to keep experimenting and make something a little better than that paper towel roll prototype.
Allison Zhu
I think it depends where they fall in the engineering spectrum, in all honesty, because I'm sure Michael has thought.
Michael Zhu
Anybody who's looked into 3D printers right now for FDM, most of the time people will hear the name Bamboo Lab and Creality. Those are the two biggest ones right now. Bamboo Lab especially, since they recently came out with the P1P and the X1, and then the A1 printers, they're all pretty much, you take it out of the box and they're... Maybe five to 10 minutes of setting up and then they're ready to go.
Noah McNeely
So it's like the Apple iPhone of printers.
Michael Zhu
Generally speaking, I think any printers that you can get for, well, not any, but like those two brands, if you pay $300 and up to $1,500, probably be your best bet. Just look at the reviews.
Noah McNeely
But still, that's someone, if. they were going into small scale manufacturing, you're not going to do that in your house with one printer. You're still going to come to you guys and probably tie up a dozen of your printers for a day to make 100, you know, whatever it is. So that's, I still, that's where I kind of, going back to Steven's question, that's where I kind of see the market kind of shifting. is that, yeah, everybody can have one now if you want to learn how to use it, but they are getting easier to use.
But you're not going to typically have a whole basement full of them. To manufacture small runs.
Michael Zhu
And that's actually one of the downsides. When you have the one printer, you still have to manually take these parts out. You have to do the filament changes. You still have to do the slicing. There's still a lot more. Than just the 3D printer printing.
Noah McNeely
You still have to self-teach a lot of that through YouTube and other places.
Steven Julian
And Allison, you got to share a story.
Allison Zhu
Yeah, I was going to say, so like, that's back to the it depends. I mean, if you. have an average dude that just wants to have a printer that does a good job consistently, I would say, you know, the bamboo, it's... It's a good out-of-the-box printer. It does a good job. It doesn't usually have the build issues that you get with some of the cheaper printers, especially the Amazon specials, you know, because there's always some caveat with warranty and replacement parts. But it's kind of like giving a laser to a five-year-old because it's still… Ill-advised.
Noah McNeely
Ill-advised, everyone.
Allison Zhu
Yes. So, like, yeah, they might be able to use it as intended and it's going to be great until it's not. And then if you don't have that foundational knowledge and the tinkering skill and the understanding of the machine you're operating, that's when it starts to go really downhill, especially if you've started to rely on that for your own production. I actually had a guy that called me the other day and he was like, my printer's not working. I was like, okay, tell me more about it. And he's like, it's a bamboo lab.
And I was like, whoa, stop there. Because they have their own proprietary system for all of their. parts. They have warranties, which we want people to use their warranties when possible because that's... That's a lot of money you're walking away from sometimes. And then on top of that, their customer support can see all this stuff, just like plugging an OBS unit into a car dash. It can see and diagnose all these problems that we can't.
Noah McNeely
It's the difference between working on a 69 Mustang and a Tesla.
Allison Zhu
Exactly. So we want them to use their resources. And he's like, I don't know what's wrong with it. It's making a weird noise. It's not working right. Fix it. And I was like. I'm sorry. I can't help you, sir.
Noah McNeely
Because Bamboo is kind of a closed system.
Allison Zhu
It is very closed, yes.
Michael Zhu
They've actually recently closed out their printer, even though there was a recent software that allowed it to be open.
Steven Julian
Interesting.
Noah McNeely
So somebody's jail broke it and then they closed it back up.
Allison Zhu
They closed it back up. Yeah. And so like if you just want it to be nice, like as long as there's no problems, that's good. But you have to be really patient if you're going to go that route. And it is expensive because the startup cost buying those machines is significantly higher than other machines that are similar. And so I'm always of the mindset of, you know, if you're really going to do this, like just. Do it the hard way so that you understand the machines and what you're doing and the things that you're playing with so that when it comes time for you to grow, if you really want to keep it all in-house, then, you know, learn it just like Michael did.
Michael Zhu
I mean, these are still fairly complex machines. and no, I mean, what you're paying, I mean, even for, it's true for Stratus, when you're, what you're paying for is the... The upfront knowledge requirement needed to operate it is taken away by having the better, slightly better hardware, the software being taken care of. So you could just put it in, put in the materials and fire and forget until it breaks. And then the single part might cost.
Steven Julian
I love that. the story of this company started with Michael in another job. The company bought a 3D printer and he became the – oh, you become the IT guy. because you can get everybody when they mess up their password. You became the 3D printing guy.
Allison Zhu
Oh, you have no idea. Yeah. No idea. There's a whole story for that.
Steven Julian
I bet there is. But we're going to tease everybody and say you're going to have to wait for Z Labs 3D to start their own podcast or movie miniseries coming soon to – The Hallmark Channel during Christmas. Santa Claus will be involved somehow. So for those people who want to utilize your services, they've got a small... Print run they want to do. They want to do small size manufacturing. They need a prototype. All the different things we talked about. And then the stuff that they're imagining that you might be able to do.
How do they get in touch with you? Where are you guys located? Give as much contact information as anybody could possibly want.
Allison Zhu
Well, we're in Peachtree Corners off of Beaufort Highway, kind of close to Langford Drive if you're a geography person.
Noah McNeely
Otherwise – That's outside Atlanta for our international listeners.
Allison Zhu
Yeah, OTP.
Steven Julian
So you definitely want to go to the website if you're outside. Is that what you're saying, Noah?
Allison Zhu
Yeah.
Noah McNeely
You can fly to Atlanta from anywhere.
Allison Zhu
Hotlanta. Yeah. So, no, our website is www.zlabs3d.com and our phone number is 770-864-9419. But that's probably the fastest way to get us is to call us. Preferably during business hours.
Steven Julian
And through the website, there's an email that they can contact. Correct. It's probably info.
Allison Zhu
It is.
Steven Julian
Yeah, you got it. All the way at the bottom. Yeah, I've done this a little while. So good business practice. So Michael and Allison Zhu from Z Labs 3D, thank you guys so much for being here today. We really appreciate it.
Allison Zhu
Thanks. Thanks for having us. Absolutely.
Steven Julian
Noah, I'm glad. So good to bring in guests.
Noah McNeely
And again, I try to meet fun people.
Steven Julian
You do. Yeah, you do. You only failed one time and that was when you met me.
Noah McNeely
So, well, there was that one other guy.
Steven Julian
Well, that's true. Who will never get on the airwaves.
Noah McNeely
The episode that will never be published.
Steven Julian
The episode that will never be aired. We are, I like these.
Noah McNeely
We'll tell you about that.
Steven Julian
Yeah, we'll tell that off air. We have all these nice inside jokes that we're developing and I like. it. Noah, I'm going to hit you with a hard heading, hard heading, hard hitting journalistic question. When are the Product Genius team jerseys going to be available on the Product Genius merch website?
Noah McNeely
Probably never. Okay. But if you really want to buy one, just reach out to me and I'll get one made for you. Yeah.
Steven Julian
And don't forget to do the markup on it. Of course. And coming soon, the Noah McNeely Product Genius bobblehead doll that is not as durable, but will be 3D printed once we figure that out. Noah, thank you so much for putting this show together. Thank you for inviting very interesting guests. And thank you to Jody Smith, our producer. I want to remind everybody, go to productquickstart.com if you want to have Noah help you bring your product to market. If you want to start your own podcast, go to jodysmith.com. He helps people podcast.
And if you want help with your independent financial advice, you can search me on the internet. That's about all I can say because compliance won't let me say any more. So for all of that. It's time for your slightly annoying co-host to say, we will catch you next time on the next 3D printed show of Product Genius.