Product Genius, the Podcast for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and Startups

Steven Julian: You know, this may sound like a clickbait headline, but it’s really not. If you listen to this next episode, you’ll learn a ton about patents from Brock Coles of Great Big Ideas, including how to get your patent process down from two years to six months. Next on Product Genius. Do you want to be a successful inventor entrepreneur struggling to get your product from idea to market? Well, you’ve come to the right place.

Brock Kolls: Welcome to Product Genius, the down-to-earth podcast that explores important topics about inventing and launching new products.

Steven Julian: Noah McNeely is your trusted guide. With more than 20 years of product launch experience, he’s here to help you on your journey to become a product genius.

Brock Kolls: Let’s get started. Here’s your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian.

Steven Julian: Hey, that’s my line. Yay! Welcome to another hopefully award-winning edition of Product Genius from deep inside the lair of Product Quick Start. We’ve got one extra person at the table. We’ll get to him in just a second. Before we get to that, sitting to my right is the intrepid producer, Jody Smith. Sitting across the table is the genius who put it all together and brings other. geniuses to the table and to our show. It is Noah McNeely of Product Quick Start. Noah, welcome to your own show.

Noah McNeely: I didn’t know you were talking about me with that intro.

Steven Julian: You better pay attention, man. That’s what makes me slightly annoying and slightly true.

Noah McNeely: It’s very good to be here.

Steven Julian: It is. And we have got a returning guest. I’m not sure. Now, this show, we haven’t said this in a couple of episodes, so I’m going to reset the table, if you’ll allow me.

Noah McNeely: Please.

Steven Julian: Okay. So this show started as the brainchild of one Tiffany Krumans of Shark Tank fame and now of Opu Probiotics growing fame. And she had to take a break from the show to start Opu Probiotics. And Noah had been one of the partners of the show. And Noah said, hey, I’ll pick up the ball and run with it. So Tiffany is still a wonderful member of the team. And we thank her for all that she’s done up to this point and certainly go check out Opu Probiotics. I think for the first time in the long history of this show and all of its iterations, we have. a returning guest.

Noah McNeely: Yeah, well, I was a returning guest.

Steven Julian: You were a returning guest, but you were a partner, right? So you were a returning guest. slash partner slash kind of secret. I was going to use a very inappropriate term, which I won’t use.

Noah McNeely: You’re going to have to tell me that later.

Steven Julian: I will, all fair. Definitely will do that all fair. I want to keep my job. A series regular. Oh, yes. Yes. You were not a special guest star. You were a series regular. And right now, our loyal listeners are doing the Monty Python line of saying, get on with it. So we have a returning guest to the show today.

Noah McNeely: Yeah. So Brock Coles is a good friend of mine, and he’s my go-to guy for anything related to patents and trademarks. And I send him a lot of people, maybe too many. To the point where he gets annoyed with me. I hope that’s not the case. Brock calls from Great Big Ideas, and that’s with a number in it. GR, the number eight. Big ideas.

Brock Kolls: That’s correct. All right. Yeah.

Noah McNeely: Very good.

Brock Kolls: Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me back on. Absolutely.

Steven Julian: Brock, so glad you’re here. So for those people, and we certainly want them to go back after you listen to this show, go listen to Brock’s other appearance. I don’t think there will be much repeating, but one thing we will repeat. So great big ideas. GR, the number eight, big ideas. Tell everybody what you do.

Brock Kolls: So I introduced myself as an entrepreneur, but I’ve had a startup. I’ve been in corporate. I’ve done 20 plus years as a patent agent, and now I focus on helping entrepreneurs and startups patent their ideas. I don’t think there’s a lot of people in the tech community that do it quite the way that I do, and that’s spending as much time as it takes to do it right for a very low fee and coordinating with product developers so that the product development cycle fits very nicely into the patent cycle, and that saves everybody a bunch of hassle and time. I’ve already, like Noah had said, we’ve done many projects together now and it works very well. Whether I meet an entrepreneur who needs something done or whether Noah meets them, we can easily make an introduction. and put them onto a process that delivers their idea and delivers intellectual property to protect it at the same time.

Steven Julian: I like the way you phrased it as the way you do it is very different from how other people do it. What are some of the, can you kind of pinpoint that down to maybe two or three or 17 different things that you do and try not to do 17, but what are two or three of the biggest things that you see other people go through when they don’t use you as a patent agent?

Brock Kolls: I think they get involved with a by-the-hour law. And in those cases there, lawyers are working on your projects by the hour, not by the project or not necessarily to get it done. And those costs can escalate so fast that it’ll run through an entrepreneur’s budget long before they get their product done and long before they get their patent done on there. I think that’s… One of the big watchouts. In contrary, I try to do very low cost, fixed fee type of projects with them. The other is I look at the front end of the process. and the back end of the process is my give back. Deliberately doing it at a very low price for provisional applications and helping them double their value when they get around to doing full applications. And it’s just a give back of my time, my energy, because I’ve been there and I know exactly what it is. Those to me are two things that you just won’t find. In the marketplace, if you’re looking for somebody to come and do your patents and nothing against by the hour law, that’s their model. I mean, that’s how they work. But sometimes for entrepreneurs, you need somebody that can spend a lot of thinking time. With them about what they’re working on and how they might protect it and be very patient through the iterations that they go through, which is one of the attributes of working back and forth with Noah is there’s lots of iterations sometimes and false starts for them to get around to a marketable concept.

Steven Julian: Yeah, Noah, I think you have something to say, so I’ll get out of your way. And then I had a question for you.

Noah McNeely: Well, yeah, I’m very selective about the. people that I… I refer clients to and the people I collaborate with in this way. That’s one of the reasons I really, well, the reason I really love working with Brock is like me, I’m also not a buy the hour person because startup, that’s really not a good model for startups for much of anything, frankly. But you could probably make a lot more money than you do. But I think I probably could too if I did things differently. I think like me, you’d There’s a labor of love involved in this. You love working with startups and entrepreneurs and inventors, and that’s reflected in how you do it. And even the things you were just talking about, your give back, I think it’s reflected in that. Unlike some people we won’t name, you’re not just out there to squeeze as much money out of an entrepreneur as you can. You’re there. I think your success, your victory dance, just like mine comes from that. Product hits the market or when that patent’s issued and they have a successful business.

Brock Kolls: I think everybody has a story. When you meet these entrepreneurs, the story is very intertwined with. their life, with their jobs, with their passion and stuff. I meet a lot of moms that have entrepreneurial ideas that they want to act on or you meet somebody who’s been in the workplace for many, many years and have carried these ideas with them. And then for some reason, they choose to activate. It’s really special to be part of it and hear the story and learn what’s going on. And along the road, it takes a while to get their product done. Sometimes there’s hiccups. Life gets in the way. They have to park a project and come back. But at the same time, from a patent perspective, the meter keeps going at the patent office. And so, you know, you have to kind of adapt to what the real life situation is with these folks. And I’m sure you do the same thing, Noah. You got to find a way to make everything fit. You got to fit the budget. You got to fit the timeline. You got to, you know. Pick up the pieces. And like you say, there’s a lot of models out there that just can’t accommodate that.

Noah McNeely: Either make things fit or. as quickly as possible help the client realize there’s no way to make that fit. You’ve got to go raise money or you’ve got to do this or you’ve got to do that.

Steven Julian: No, so I was going to ask you and Brock gave a great answer as I expected him to. It’s his company. It’s what he does. But one of the reasons why you brought him back on this show is because in the… Past year, we’ve had a couple of shows where we’ve talked about patents and we’ve talked about things to avoid and red flags. And because this area is one of the areas that gets most taken advantage of or entrepreneurs get screwed over more than anything.

Noah McNeely: And I don’t even know that it’s intentionally they’re getting screwed over. I think people are doing what they think is right.

Steven Julian: And Brock raised a great point. The per hour law, that’s not wrong. That’s not evil. That’s not nefarious. It’s just. It’s getting a lawyer to do a patent rather than getting a past entrepreneur who’s a patent agent to do it. So let me ask you kind of the same question from your side of. the table. Give an example or two of why Brock is the perfect type of person for you to work with for your clients. And what he does. so differently from the other things you’ve seen and have frustrated you to the point of coming on the air and expressing some of those frustrations.

Noah McNeely: Well, that felt like five questions.

Steven Julian: Yeah, it did. So you pick whatever one you want and answer it. I’m just being slightly annoyed.

Noah McNeely: I’ll answer at least two of them. Our clients, our startup clients, they have a limited runway to get their product launched. And it doesn’t do us the way we’ve structured ourselves. It doesn’t do us all that much good to get them halfway there. It certainly doesn’t do them any good. So that’s one of the reasons I like Grock a lot for my clients is that attitude. The other thing I would say really relates to one of the things I’ve griped about a lot is I meet these people, these clients that come in and they’re what I… I kind of call them patent worshipers because they’ve gone out before they designed really anything outside of their head. They’ve. gone out and they’ve probably hourly law have gotten this patent issued and it’s spent 10,000, whatever amount of money on this patent. They come in and five minutes into the meeting, I have identified, well, here’s 12 cheaper and better ways to do exactly what you patented. And they’re like, oh no, we got to make exactly what’s in the patent. Well, that’s fine. But you know, I found a way around it that quickly. Anyone that wants to compete with you can too. So what Brock does is very different is he strategizes and he integrates with the product development process rather than treating patenting as its own. be all end all. Love it. I think I may have answered five questions.

Steven Julian: You did. You did fantastic. I think you answered seven.

Noah McNeely: My rambling alarm was starting to go off.

Steven Julian: Well, it was only set. The alarm was only set because of my rambling question. Brock, let’s bring you in to rescue this show. So talk a little bit about and Noah kind of that was a good segue to talk about. How do you tackle, because I know every case is a little different, every entrepreneur and. every product that you work with and every patent that you’ve done, they all can be so unique and so different. How do you approach looking at a particular product that comes your way? Talk a little bit about multiple patent times or utility versus. just kind of talk through the strategies that you’re looking for. Is there a list of questions you’re asking or just kind of lead us through that process?

Brock Kolls: Usually when Noah refers somebody to me, I’ll set up a call with them. We’ll start with a call. And some of the things, just what you were asking, we go through. They want to know the difference of different kinds of patents. And I tell them there’s two ways to protect your idea. You can protect how it looks with a design patent. You can protect how it works with a utility patent. And very often, you can do both in there. And I then tell them that most early stage projects start out. With what’s called a provisional patent, it’s very flexible. It can take early drawings, napkins, early CAD drawings. that Noah does. And because of its low cost, it gives people a patent. pending. And a filing date and it gives them a year to advance their ideas, but it doesn’t break the budget. And they can be in the marketplace and they can feel comfortable talking about their idea and working with vendors. They can also feel comfortable that if the product development process changes, evolves their idea over time, they don’t have sunk cost into a process. And that ultimately when Noah reaches a final drawing stage where things change from, it’s pretty frozen. And we’re going to be moving forward. Hopefully that happens within that one year time period and the entrepreneur and the project are both ready to move forward with that. Now, what I do special on the back end is if somebody wants to do a utility patent with me, I can do the design one for free. And the reason why I can do that is because Noah sends me such great 3D CAD models that I can develop the pictures on my own for both applications at the same time. Now, this saves the entrepreneur about two grand. It’s a great savings and it’s one example of taking a look at the unique type of. customers that we work with and figuring exactly how to get the patent system to deliver for them at the lowest possible cost, highest possible value.

Steven Julian: And so that free thing is you’re like, hey, there’s so little that I need to do because of what Noah’s done to this point. I can get this for you with the understanding that I’m going to work with you to get to the back end to the real payoff, which is that full the full blown patent of design and all that to really protect them. So I think so. One of the things you two both share coming at this from different. You’re coming from patents. Noah’s coming from prototyping and creating, designing, getting it to market. The end goal is the same of getting the person to market and, in your case, getting them protected with their patent. So talk, I guess, talk about, and let’s use the word synergy or handshake. Both of those were kind of said as we were discussing this off air. Just how important is it to work with someone like Noah, someone else on the team of the entrepreneur? Again, different areas, but you’re. both pulling in the same direction and helping the entrepreneur get to the end zone.

Brock Kolls: From my standpoint, having a professional help with the product design informs what the invention should be rather than an entrepreneur saying, I would like to do this. Do what and how it works and that type of thing. The CAD that Noah develops in order to build products from is such a great high quality that I think when I send applications in to the patent office visually, it’s very easy for the examiner to understand what the invention is. And therefore, it’s easier for him to say yes, right? Because you’re communicating visually, which I think most of us digest that first in there. And so having great drawings based… Based on a good design with very clear features on how it works makes that application much higher probability of success of coming out the other end. The alternative is I might end up with a photograph of somebody that has taken something on their table that I have to send to a drafter who then draws it in a foreign country and sends it to me. And then when I get it. back, I have to describe how it’s supposed to work. It’s more of a paper exercise.

Steven Julian: And you’ve had examples, I’m sure, where you’ve done that. And that’s where, hey, I can’t do this for free because I don’t know where this is going to lead. But by the same token, you’re also not going to take advantage of that person. But hey, there’s a cost to what you do. And in the case of working with a professional who’s created a lot more on the front end for you, and you know that entrepreneur has put some money into it, it allows you to go, well, I can do this part really, really inexpensively or even free because I think I can see how we’re going to get to the end line and that’s where I’m going to get paid and everybody’s going to get taken care of.

Brock Kolls: It works great. Yeah. It works great that way. I think there’s a lot of other strategies that can be employed too. Like for instance, I think the best value in patenting is if you can have a co-inventor that’s 65 years or older because you can petition to make your. application special based on age and it’ll move to the front of the line. Now this cuts a two-year process down to about a six-month process. And so a lot of times collaborating with entrepreneurs, right? They can then involve family members. You can widen the circle to develop concepts. It helps the inventor pool. So ultimately when you get around to filing applications with different inventors, you can, you know, if you go into the process knowing what you want to get out of the process, it works very well. And I think this is another great synergy of working with the startups and working primarily with the entrepreneurs. They seem to be the most flexible in being able to collaborate with people.

Noah McNeely: And the comment that Brock just made about the 65 and older rule with the patent office, I think that’s another really important thing about how Brock approaches things. I tend to describe Brock more as a patent strategist than anything else in the sense that he’s not simply there to say, yeah, you can get a patent on that because you can get a patent on pretty much whatever. It’s just maybe worthless, but he. strategizes how to handle, how to navigate the system. It’s not just, hey, I’m going to write a patent for you. It’s going to, I’m going to write this patent. It’s going to be written the right way to get through the system as, you know, as efficiently as possible. And by the way, can we include your grandmother as an inventor? And if so, we’ll get there faster, you know, or whatever, all those other little nuances that can be very helpful if you know how to strategize them.

Brock Kolls: I think it helps too, because a lot of people like, you know, we talked about how these ideas are emotional and everything. And when they can collaborate with their family members and stuff, it is a way of memorializing, right? You know, that they’ve worked with their kids, that they’ve worked with their grandparents, that they’ve worked with that type of thing, just as an example, or they’ve collaborated with more employees than they would have, creating like a recognition and that type of thing. And even if the projects don’t succeed, I feel like the patents kind of memorialize. This journey that they went through together, right? That. there’s an outcome that’s forever that they’re on there. And I think a lot of people that we’ve met that have that same feeling. They’re working on games they played with their kids and grandpa’s involved or grandma’s involved or that type of thing in there.

Noah McNeely: And to list grandma or grandpa, it’s not like they have to be in the shop building stuff with a welder. If you just have discussions with them and they contribute. Even the most basic elements of the idea, they can be listed as an also inventor. Correct.

Brock Kolls: Yeah. So technically the rule is they have to contribute to the invention, right? And by that- Contribute to at least one of the claims. And I tell them the same thing. Sometimes, you know, take a meeting with them, go over, ask them their opinion, use the invention with them, get their feedback incorporated into the design, that type of stuff. It seems like if your objective, right, is to go through the process and you want to definitely have that 65 plus inventor on there, it’s easy to do. Particularly during the product development cycle.

Noah McNeely: By all means, if your grandmother is good at. welding, make use of that.

Steven Julian: But it’s not required. Your grandmother or grandfather making BLT sandwiches for you during the three months while you were working in the basement.

Brock Kolls: Your grandmother could break it, right? And then you would know how to make it stronger.

Steven Julian: Oh, I like that.

Noah McNeely: I like that. Or maybe you have a grandmother that’s very critical and she could tell you all the things that are wrong with it.

Steven Julian: And what was wrong with why you didn’t finish college. But that’s another show.

Brock Kolls: Grandpa’s name’s on there instead of grandma’s.

Steven Julian: That’s a different show. We’re speaking with Brock Coles. He is here from Great Big Ideas. He is a patent agent. And Noah, I was going to ask you this question, and this might be for both of you. And forgive me, it is going to be a rambling question. But I think Brock is kind of pumping up working with people like you who help bring the product to a certain point before they go get a patent. One of the outgrowths of this show over the last year or two is especially the people you’re bringing to the table and the people that. we’re talking about. A lot of the mistakes that when I first met you. Your tone was louder and Tiffany’s tone, the frustration of what we see. Oh, it just makes me, you know, I’m not going to take it anymore.

Noah McNeely: We all still remember that one episode.

Steven Julian: Yes, exactly. Go back and find it if you can. But I’m beginning to see that really one of the quests that I think both you guys are on is enlarging the community, bringing more people to the table because you’re not the only one who does this. You’re the best. But you’re not the only, that’s my words, not yours, but you’re not the only one who kind of does it this way. So, you know, have I pulled back the curtain and showed what’s really going on? You’re just trying to help people get in the community to avoid some of the biggest mistakes they can make, such as I have an idea, you know, and taking fuzzy pictures and here I want to patent this and, you know, spending all this unnecessary money.

Noah McNeely: That was a long and ramble question.

Steven Julian: That was. And it wasn’t even really a question. I just was talking.

Noah McNeely: This happened and this happened. Discuss amongst you. Yes.

Steven Julian: I’m feeling a little verklempt. You discuss.

Noah McNeely: So I think the thing you said about bringing a community together, bringing a community together of like-minded individuals. You know, there are other groups out there that will just bring in whoever that may or may not share. That’s philosophically what Brock and I and others in our group, in our kind of circle do. And that is the sense that we are in this because we enjoy working with entrepreneurs. We are entrepreneurial ourselves. We’re not here to profit off of inventors. We’re here to profit and, you know, maintain our businesses with inventors. And I think that’s sort of the key of the community. Consciously or subconsciously, I try to build. And that’s why Brock is part of that.

Brock Kolls: I think that’s the key is you have to–I introduce myself as an entrepreneur. Right. I have no pride in labels, right? But I believe that I’m working with my people. I can relate to them. I can listen to what they tell me and I can identify they’re having budget troubles. I can–I. can read the stitches on a fastball.

Steven Julian: Because you’ve been in the batter’s box facing that fastball.

Brock Kolls: And I think in collaborating with Noah, he’s the same way. He can probably read the stitches on a fastball too with these entrepreneurs. And it really does influence how you approach these projects and how you accomplish what it is they’re trying to do in a way that doesn’t tip the ship over. A lot of them are wrestling with family budget versus project budget on there. And you got to get to the goal line. On both, right? On these things. And so I find it a lot of fun. And I like it when people invite me into their living room, so to speak, to tell me about their ideas and stuff like that.

Steven Julian: And sometimes I would imagine the initial call is always free, correct? Always.

Brock Kolls: Yeah. Every call. Yeah.

Steven Julian: So, okay. Every call is free. That’s right. Because you never charge by the hour. You charge by the project. Yeah. And I would imagine because. Because Noah shared these stories from his side from creating prototyping and stuff like that. I would imagine there are people who come. to you and you go, you don’t need to talk to me right now. You need to talk to Noah or you need to talk to someone else who can help them do whatever they need to do. So because it would be very unfair for me to ask the question, hey, when should people get a patent? Because that answer is as diverse as the world we live in.

Noah McNeely: There are some patent attorneys. that the answer is when I need a boat. Right.

Steven Julian: So instead, I’ll kind of ask, can you… Can you help anyone no matter where they are in their journey? What are some of the right questions they should be asking?

Brock Kolls: So the answer is yes, you can help somebody wherever they are in their journey. It usually starts just informing them about the patent process, just like we talked about earlier on the show. Different types of patents kind of set a relative expectation on cost and timing. And it’s true. Sometimes they just go away for a while and they’re working on other aspects of it, but then they surface on there. What’s perfect for me is when they have an initial concept. done. Usually Noah will do an initial concept on there. I at least can get a CAD file, get some pictures, and I can write some text about it. And we just try to get a provisional application done for them. Sometimes maybe they have a hurry up or they’re doing something and it changes the timeline or whatnot. Realistically, that’s a great starting point is when you get some initial drawings and you’ve gone through kind of the first rigor of what the design will be. And then, like I say, the natural timing of a provisional is it runs out in a year or you get your product cycle done, right? I mean, those are sort of the gating items. And so when you get to sort of final drawings, the project changes from being, I’ll say, an inventive front end to more of a commercialization type of back end and that type of thing. And that’s the perfect time to. To jump in with other applications. And if you do the 65 thing, realistically, they all get to the goal line at the same time then. Yeah. I like that. Which is even more awesome timing.

Steven Julian: So Noah has brought up on the show more than once as in what he does with kind of helping people bring their product to market, do a prototype. There are definite people who I can do it myself. Is there anyone who says that about patents? Have you had people? I can do a patent myself. I can file a paperwork myself.

Brock Kolls: I think so. Sometimes people will try a provisional themselves and they go out, they go to the internet, they go to the website and they do the type of things. Freepatents.com. And whatnot. And a lot of times it appears successful because there’s really no hurdle for provisionals as long as you pay the fee on there. But realistically, it’s a very unique language and I love it. It’s part art. Part science. And it needs to be feathered together very carefully, right? You want to identify what is the main feature and you want to highlight it like it’s magic in the bottle, right? In there. You want to communicate visually what your invention is because I believe that’s where examiners start. You want the pictures that you draw to be able to just look at. figure one, look at figure two, and then they’ve got a grade in their mind. And sometimes it takes a little time to do that. And then you want to describe how you’re And then you want to describe what your invention does. And it’s important to kind of have those different lenses on there because they inform different things. And then, of course, the legal claims in the back are what it’s all worth, right? And so for me, I start with… The legal claims in the back, because to me, that’s the value. And when I can look at those claims and I can say, aha, if we get these, these will be really good. And then I work on the pictures in the front. Those are my bookends, you know? And then once I feel like I have that, then it’s just a great narrative story in between about the invention. And I’m not sure that somebody who’s not informed or experienced in patents chooses that type of path. And to me, I think that’s the best, you know, like a fruitful path to go down.

Steven Julian: All right. I got a question for both of you. I. did not clear this ahead of time before the show. So Noah’s nervous laughter fills the air. Jody’s malicious laughter is not caught on.

Noah McNeely: Jody, be ready with the dump.

Steven Julian: Yeah, exactly. So we had story time in one of our previous recordings. that we did, and Noah’s a great storyteller. And so I’m going to ask, without giving away details, without getting yourselves in trouble with your potential clients, can you guys think, can each of you think of an example that you, in working together, in finding the synergy that you go, man, this was perfect, or this could have completely gone off the rails and we were able to kind of rescue and save them. So, see, you don’t need to dump that. That’s actually a good question, isn’t it?

Noah McNeely: It is.

Steven Julian: But Noah likes to make notes, so he’s now making mental notes.

Noah McNeely: The one that jumped to my mind instantly, and again, to keep it anonymous. A personal grooming product. we helped recently. And I think they follow the 65 and older strategy.

Brock Kolls: That’s exactly it.

Steven Julian: Oh, they’re getting excited.

Noah McNeely: Their products on the market has done well. They’ve ordered again from the factory.

Brock Kolls: That’s. right. And it involved getting some of their family members on the patent as well. So, you know, team effort on there. And you’re right.

Steven Julian: And Noah brought them to you.

Brock Kolls: And we got a design patent and we got a utility patent out of it, which is, you know. Home run with runners on.

Steven Julian: I love these baseball references.

Brock Kolls: That’s a really good one. For me, my favorite part of the patent process is, and they still send them, thank goodness, if you’re all done with the patent, about a week after they issue, they send you a physical patent. I like to go over to FedEx and mail it to the inventors. That’s the last step for me in the process. And you know what? It feels like a great accomplishment. I feel like I’m part of their team. I’m on call. I’m on standby all the time. I love to hear the stories about products that get ordered or see them in the marketplace or they call in frustration and you can help use your network to connect them with somebody during the marketing process and that type of thing.

Steven Julian: Do they still use a special type? of paper? I mean, is it still kind of parchment-y?

Brock Kolls: I think I have one in my bag right here. I’m not quite sure, but it i

Steven Julian: Greetings and salutations. Steven Julian: I am your slightly annoying host, Steven Julian. Steven Julian: Welcome to a new edition of Product Genius. Steven Julian: This time… Without Tiffany Crumans, but what we do have is the fantastic Noah McNeely. Steven Julian: Noah, welcome back to the show. Noah McNeely: Yeah, it’s good to be back. Noah McNeely: I feel like it’s been an entire pandemic ago. Steven Julian: Almost. Steven Julian: It’s been at least, it’s been a year, but it does kind of feel like a whole pandemic ago. Steven Julian: So, Product Genius, this might sound a little bit different. Steven Julian: There are some differences. Steven Julian: Why don’t? Steven Julian: we cover all that stuff up front?

Steven Julian: Broadcasting this show almost live from the Plush Palatial Studios that is the worldwide headquarters of Product Quick Start. Steven Julian: Tell everybody about your new digs. Noah McNeely: Yes, so Product Quick Start, we were fortunate enough to move into a new facility, well, new to us facility that we’re renovating in what they call the Depot District of Lawrenceville, Georgia, which is this… Exciting little area where we have some breweries and we have a distillery going in. Noah McNeely: that I think is going to make tequila and I try to remain sober during the day when I’m working here. Steven Julian: Especially when you’re doing the show. Steven Julian: Well, maybe not as much when you do that. Noah McNeely: Probably more important that I remain sober when using the power equipment in the back. Steven Julian: Amen. Steven Julian: The other thing we want to talk about for those people who are coming upon this episode and have listened to past episodes. Steven Julian: In some respects, we’re the same, but in some respects, there are some differences. Steven Julian: This show was always known as Product Genius with Tiffany Krumans. Steven Julian: Tiffany is still with us, but she’s not with us in the studio. Steven Julian: So, Noah, I ask. Steven Julian: you, where in the world is Tiffany Krumans? Noah McNeely: Well, anyone that has listened to more recent shows probably knows Tiffany has a lot of ideas for businesses, and she also has… New children in her life, and she stays very, very busy. Noah McNeely: Her latest company is called Opu Probiotics, and it’s a fabulous product. Noah McNeely: I recommend you try it. Noah McNeely: I particularly like the mocha mint flavor. Noah McNeely: But anyway, we believe that Tiffany is scouring the world looking for the finest ingredients she can for that particular product. Noah McNeely: So you might find her in the Himalayas or the Amazon. Noah McNeely: Probably wearing a baby and a baby Bjorn and with three other kids following her around. Steven Julian: And everybody can go to opuprobiotics.com, opuprobiotics.com, and see all the latest things that Tiffany is doing with that product. Steven Julian: And therefore, she was the creator of Product Genius originally, and you were a fantastic partner and sponsor of the show and would come on and talk about… Developing products through your business, productquickstart.com. Steven Julian: And when Tiffany really launched Opu, she told all of us, Jody Smith, the producer of the show, and myself as the slightly annoying host, hey, I’m going to take a little. Steven Julian: bit of time off. Steven Julian: I got to launch this new business. Steven Julian: And then in the meantime, let me just fast forward a little bit. Steven Julian: And I don’t know how much behind the scenes and unplugged you want to get. Steven Julian: Why are you sitting across the table from me and why are you now kind of leading this ship that Tiffany built up to this point? Noah McNeely: Well, first, we’re going to hope that the Shipley is led in a good direction and not running aground. Steven Julian: Not yet, at least. Steven Julian: We’re five minutes in. Steven Julian: It’s so far so good. Noah McNeely: So, yeah, we’re doing great at the moment. Noah McNeely: Well, I always enjoyed doing the show. Noah McNeely: I mean, I had a lot of fun with you guys and it really hits one of my passions, which… I like talking about this stuff. Noah McNeely: I do what I love. Noah McNeely: I enjoy explaining it to people. Noah McNeely: I think the show is a good way to do that. Noah McNeely: I’ve actually met a number of people through the show. Noah McNeely: Those are all great conversations. Noah McNeely: My hope is as we move forward, Product Genius will be a show that’s useful for inventors, of course. Noah McNeely: Really, I think we’re going to. Noah McNeely: talk about things that relate to all entrepreneurs or most entrepreneurs. Noah McNeely: Even to people that work for bigger companies that want to think more like entrepreneurs. Steven Julian: So here we are after more than a year off. Steven Julian: We’re doing a new show. Steven Julian: Noah McNeely is sitting across the table from me. Steven Julian: Jody Smith from JodySmith.com is still our producer. Steven Julian: I’m still the slightly annoying host. Steven Julian: And here we are still talking about product development. Steven Julian: We’re going to talk about inventing. Steven Julian: And today we’re talking about help. Steven Julian: I’ve got too many ideas. Steven Julian: Which is definitely true of this show after not doing it for a year. Steven Julian: And people who are doing product development and kind of trying to bring their product to market, as they’re bringing one product to market, they have all these other ideas. Steven Julian: That’s the entrepreneurial, that’s the inventor. Steven Julian: There’s a lot of people listening who, number one, are going, okay, yeah, they’re talking about something I need to talk about. Steven Julian: And when you’re listening to this, you might also be thinking, Ooh, I know someone else that needs to hear this. Steven Julian: So listen to this one, invite them to hear the show because we’re going to be talking. Steven Julian: about, I got too many ideas. Steven Julian: So the title of the show, obviously I gave a little bit of a inkling of it.

Steven Julian: You are guilty of this just like anybody else, right? Noah McNeely: Oh, absolutely. Noah McNeely: In fact, the fact that I’m doing this podcast while writing a business and… Engaging in various other hobbies may be an example of where I’m guilty of this, but I’m trying to balance it well. Noah McNeely: And we thought this would be a really good topic for the first show because Tiffany is actually a great example of doing this well. Noah McNeely: She realized at some point that she had too many different things going on. Noah McNeely: So to be successful, she had to push some of them to the back, and that’s why. Noah McNeely: That’s why we’re here. Steven Julian: That’s why she’s out finding those great products or finding those great ingredients to go into the mint mocha. Noah McNeely: That’s why she’s in the Amazon today. Noah McNeely: Exactly. Noah McNeely: So, you know, this is a problem that doesn’t just affect inventors and entrepreneurs. Noah McNeely: It actually affects big companies as well. Noah McNeely: And back when I did a lot of big company work, this was a topic that would come up. Noah McNeely: The big. Noah McNeely: scary corporate name for this is portfolio management. Noah McNeely: As an inventor entrepreneur, you never need to use that phrase again, probably. Noah McNeely: But the idea is even big companies, they have so many things that they want to do or would love to do, but they can’t do them all. Noah McNeely: In a big company, like a Fortune 500 company, I almost said some names there, but I don’t want to be sued or anything by any of my clients from years ago. Noah McNeely: In a big company, you have entire teams of people in many cases. Noah McNeely: Their whole job is to manage and really to do the portfolio management role. Noah McNeely: They’ll have roadmaps of products that the company is going to develop for five, ten years out in some cases, and they have to prioritize those. Steven Julian: So let’s talk about the person who’s listening to this podcast who’s trying to bring one or a couple of products to market or are trying to build their business. Steven Julian: Go from idea to prototype to development.

Steven Julian: When you say, help, I’ve got too many ideas, can that be true of one product? Noah McNeely: It can be. Noah McNeely: It can be true of one product or it can. Noah McNeely: also just be the nature of the individual. Noah McNeely: So I’ve met people that clients have come in and they get really excited about their product. Noah McNeely: We go through that. Noah McNeely: And then a lot of times on the way out the door, they’re like, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Noah McNeely: I’ve got seven more I’m working on. Noah McNeely: We’re going to talk about them next time. Noah McNeely: And I think they tell me that to get me more excited about working with them, but that’s really often a red flag. Noah McNeely: So on the next meeting, you’re at the next meeting, I usually have to tamp that down a little bit and say, you know, look, that’s great. Noah McNeely: I love all these ideas, but let’s get one on the market first. Noah McNeely: And I think that can be a tough thing for entrepreneurs, even myself, because I have… I have so many things I want to accomplish and want to do, but it’s easy to want to spend all the time in the visionary stage. Noah McNeely: Hey, this is going to be fun. Noah McNeely: I’m going to spend all day thinking about this idea and jotting out what’s it going to be like when. Noah McNeely: I’m done. Noah McNeely: But the problem is there’s a lot of things that have to happen between now and achieving that vision. Steven Julian: And the ideas is the sexy part. Steven Julian: The ideas is the everybody’s. Steven Julian: Had at least one or two ideas. Steven Julian: I actually, I still don’t know why at times I’m the slightly annoying host of the show because I’ve had very few ideas of products. Steven Julian: I’ve never tried to develop anything, but I would relate it. Steven Julian: I, I love the world of comedy and I love listening to comedians, especially them talking about doing jokes. Steven Julian: And it’s one thing to have, Hey, Seinfeld had a book called, is this anything you start with an idea? Steven Julian: Hey, is this anything? Steven Julian: Is this potentially funny? Steven Julian: But from that point to getting it to where it’s a tight bit to be done on stage, there’s this huge, there’s a lot of work that goes in. Steven Julian: So you just mentioned it’s easy to do the ideas. Steven Julian: I got seven more, but they got all this work they got to do to just to get that one. Steven Julian: But I want to drill down and I want to kind of push back and ask even that. Steven Julian: person who’s on that one, I’ve got too many ideas. Steven Julian: Do they get sidetracked with too many things even in that one single idea? Steven Julian: That they’re bringing to market? Noah McNeely: Yeah, that can happen too.

Noah McNeely: I think we may have talked about this a long time ago, but there’s a concept I call minimum viable product or early viable product. Steven Julian: I remember that. Noah McNeely: Yes, it’s a classic. Noah McNeely: You should check it out. Noah McNeely: But the issue there is sometimes maybe it is just one product, but they have all these ideas for that one product. Noah McNeely: Oh, I want it to do this. Noah McNeely: I want it to do that. Noah McNeely: I want it to be Wi-Fi and I want it to levitate and I want it to glow in the dark. Noah McNeely: Sir, it’s a doorknob. Noah McNeely: It doesn’t need to necessarily do all that. Noah McNeely: Those are all great. Noah McNeely: Let’s get one on the market. Noah McNeely: because all that stuff you just talked about, that’s a two-year development program. Noah McNeely: If we just do your basic product, which is already cool and already different than anything out there, you can be on the market in six months. Noah McNeely: You can generate revenue. Noah McNeely: You’ve got a successful business at that. Noah McNeely: point. Noah McNeely: And more importantly, you’ve got money that you can now spend on Gen 2 and Gen 3 and Gen 4. Noah McNeely: But if we start down the path of developing, The super mega colossal product now, you’re never going to get there. Steven Julian: And we titled this show again, Help, but I think probably more often than not your job as the product development guru, as the genius who helps people bring their product to market, you have to tell them you really should be saying, Help, I have too many ideas in this super amazing, stupendous product. Steven Julian: Very rarely do they verbalize that. Steven Julian: You’re helping them verbalize. Noah McNeely: Right. Noah McNeely: Well, sometimes I have to help people realize it is a problem because, like I said, a lot of visionary people and a lot of entrepreneurs, like myself, we do tend to love that visionary phase. Noah McNeely: And we think that’s the most important thing. Noah McNeely: It’s not. Noah McNeely: It’s actually one of the least important and easiest parts of having a successful business.

Noah McNeely: So think about it this way. Noah McNeely: Think about all the little boys who dream about winning a Super Bowl as the quarterback. Noah McNeely: Now, you can’t just keep dreaming about winning a. Super Bowl. Noah McNeely: That’s great. Noah McNeely: That’s a wonderful vision. Noah McNeely: But if you don’t start exercising and training and learning the game, you’ll never play on a team, much less get to the Super Bowl. Steven Julian: So it’s a difference between being a Super Bowl quarterback and being Uncle Rico sitting on the front step saying, if Coach had put me in that game, we would have won the state that year. Noah McNeely: That’s exactly right. Noah McNeely: And there are no time machines that will get you back there. Steven Julian: Exactly. Steven Julian: So portfolio management, to use the term of the Fortune 500 companies, is really them kind of categorizing or siloing or insert other corporate term here. Steven Julian: But really, it’s checking boxes. Steven Julian: It’s laying it out in steps.

Steven Julian: Is that something that you, as the person with Product Quick Start, is trying to help people say, okay, here are the 17 steps that we’re going to have to take? Steven Julian: Or is it just getting them focused on creating the 17 steps? Steven Julian: Kind of talk through that process. Steven Julian: Someone’s got an idea, and then someone starts to spiral into too many ideas. Steven Julian: The portfolio management that you do, not for the Fortune 500, but for the individual. Steven Julian: entrepreneur and inventor, what do you try to bring to the table? Noah McNeely: Yeah, so it’s really launch your product in 375 easy steps. Noah McNeely: No, it’s not. Noah McNeely: There’s really only two questions. Steven Julian: I thought it was 367 steps. Noah McNeely: We revised it last year. Noah McNeely: Oh, okay. Noah McNeely: So there’s really only two. Noah McNeely: Two questions that I ask people to consider when they’re trying to prioritize the features of their product or which product to develop or which product to develop when. Noah McNeely: And with the assumption that inventor entrepreneurs, you probably don’t have five people or 20 people on a team that you’re paying to do all the analysis. Noah McNeely: And yeah, you go to a really big company and they’re going to ask a lot more than these two questions. Noah McNeely: At least they’re going to ask a lot more versions of these two questions. Noah McNeely: But the two questions I tell people to consider is, number one, what can I get to the market with my resources? Noah McNeely: And of course, I can help them try to figure that out. Noah McNeely: This is how much it’s going to take to develop this product, to make the tooling for it, to produce it. Noah McNeely: So we have to be. Noah McNeely: realistic about what resources you have to actually get that to the market. Noah McNeely: And that may mean you can’t launch five at a time. Noah McNeely: Now, I’ve had some clients that are just independently wealthy, and yeah, they can do it. Noah McNeely: They have the resources for that. Noah McNeely: It can still be a bad idea in those cases because a resource that people often overlook is their own time, their own focus, their own ability to strategize and think about their business. Noah McNeely: So the second question is, what can I sell? Noah McNeely: You know, what will I be able to sell? Noah McNeely: So, yeah, this is a great idea. Noah McNeely: I have the funds to develop it. Noah McNeely: I have the resources to develop it. Noah McNeely: But is there a market for it? Noah McNeely: And is it a market that I understand well enough to actually sell? Noah McNeely: And the answer to either of those questions is no. Noah McNeely: Then that’s probably not the product you should develop first. Noah McNeely: You need to focus on the product or the collection of features in your product. Noah McNeely: that both of those answers are yes. Steven Julian: And I know we’ve talked about variations of those questions over past episodes. Steven Julian: Encourage everybody to go back and. Steven Julian: listen to Noah’s past episodes on Product Genius. Noah McNeely: Product Genius is brought to you by Opu Probiotics. Noah McNeely: Pre and probiotics you can pour directly on your tongue in delicious mint and mocha flavors. Steven Julian: But the taste is just the beginning. Noah McNeely: With Opu, you can see improved digestive function, boosted immune system, easier weight management, improved mental health, and much more. Noah McNeely: Try today at GetOpu.com. Steven Julian: That’s GetOpu.com. Steven Julian: Let me focus in on the second question. Steven Julian: first, because I think… The typical inventor entrepreneur who sits down with you, especially with their first idea, and you ask them that question, you know, what can I sell? Steven Julian: Can this sell? Steven Julian: Their answer, bar none, is going to be, well, of course this is going to sell. Steven Julian: It’s a fantastic idea. Steven Julian: I came up with this. Steven Julian: It came in a bolt of lightning. Steven Julian: Everybody who brings you any idea is going to tell you, well, of course it’s going to sell. Steven Julian: It’s fantastic. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I’ve heard variations of, well, why wouldn’t you buy this if you could buy it? Noah McNeely: I’ve probably heard a hundred variations of that throughout the course of my career.

Steven Julian: You’re a communist pig if you don’t buy this, of course. Steven Julian: This is great. Steven Julian: Sorry, that was my insertion, not Noah’s. Steven Julian: My apologies. Noah McNeely: Yeah, so we’re going to remain politically apolitical here as best we can. Noah McNeely: Uh, yeah. Noah McNeely: So a lot of, um, a lot of inventor entrepreneurs, they’re so enamored by their idea. Noah McNeely: They just can’t imagine it not being successful. Noah McNeely: And then they’re like, well, as soon as people see this, they’re going to want it. Noah McNeely: That may be true. Noah McNeely: And that, that in some ways that for most people, that probably is true. Noah McNeely: The question becomes, how do you reach those people? Noah McNeely: And that’s also part of how do you sell it? Noah McNeely: Can you sell it? Noah McNeely: Uh, so if you’ve got a, it’s a product that, oh, everyone would use it. Noah McNeely: Well, that’s almost the worst kind of product for an inventor because. Noah McNeely: You don’t have the marketing budget to reach everybody. Noah McNeely: If it’s more focused, like, well, people that have teenage girls that want to learn how to play golf, you can reach that market a lot easier and in a more forceful way. Noah McNeely: So that’s also part of, you know, what’s it going to take to sell this? Noah McNeely: Not necessarily even, do I have the sales? Noah McNeely: skills? Noah McNeely: You can always hire someone to do that for you, but it’s got to be. Noah McNeely: Do I have the resources not only to design, develop, produce this product, but do I have the resources to sell it? Noah McNeely: What are those resources going to be? Steven Julian: And in your help in answering that question, because I was kind of pushing back against the question, the second question you asked there, what can I sell? Steven Julian: You have to drill down and you have to ask that question more specifically or they have to answer that question more specifically because really what you’re asking is, is there a market for this? Steven Julian: Can the person define the market? Steven Julian: Can you sell it? Steven Julian: Meaning the person who’s got the idea, how would you sell it? Steven Julian: So let me then ask this in helping them answer that question. Steven Julian: How much is it you trying to get them to have their eyes open to all the all that that’s going to entail of selling the product? Steven Julian: or and or how much is it you saying, if you’ll listen to me, I’ve had a lot of experience and I’ve done this for a long time and I’ve done. Steven Julian: this. Steven Julian: On corporate level and individual level, here’s what I believe and I know surrounding what you’ve just told me about this idea. Noah McNeely: It’s a little bit of both. Noah McNeely: It depends on who I’m talking to and how receptive they are. Steven Julian: Ah, there we go. Noah McNeely: Different people with different personalities. Noah McNeely: You know, it’s kind of like the old Aesop’s fables, the way he would teach very powerful people lessons without insulting them, as he would tell a story about someone else who was fictional. Noah McNeely: They would maybe learn a lesson about. Noah McNeely: So sometimes I have to do that. Noah McNeely: And it comes along as, you know, I have to say, you know, look, I’m not into sales. Noah McNeely: I’m not into marketing. Noah McNeely: I design, build, and create stuff. Noah McNeely: I can help you fill a warehouse full of product. Noah McNeely: That’s no problem. Noah McNeely: We got that. Noah McNeely: What I can’t help you do is I can’t help you sell. Noah McNeely: I can’t help you market. Noah McNeely: I can tell you what I’ve seen other people do and what that’s cost them. Noah McNeely: And oftentimes that loan and going through that process is enough to help them realize, oh, I hadn’t thought about that. Noah McNeely: I hadn’t thought about that. Noah McNeely: I am going to need a budget for that. Noah McNeely: And so sometimes I approach it that way. Noah McNeely: Sometimes people come in and they do have a lot of really good business savvy, business knowledge, business experience. Noah McNeely: They understand that right up front. Noah McNeely: I have to do a lot less in those cases. Noah McNeely: Sometimes in those cases, it’s more about explaining why it costs so much to make this product or that product or whatever it is. Steven Julian: So let me just ask Noah McNeely, the Product Quick Start CEO and the guy who’s done this for more than a few years, although you only look like you’ve been doing it for a few years. Noah McNeely: Well, hair dye goes a long way. Steven Julian: Exactly. Steven Julian: And flattery will get me everywhere. Steven Julian: Do you enjoy to an extent when someone who’s just starting out in this, it’s their first idea, they’ve never run a business, but they’re receptive to your kind of expertise and guidance. Steven Julian: There’s that that’s satisfying. Steven Julian: As well as the satisfying of kind of someone with some business savvy who knows the business stuff and you don’t have to spend as much time on that and you can really just focus on. Steven Julian: the product development. Steven Julian: Is there a preference one where this is just a personal question I’m asking at this point? Noah McNeely: That is a very difficult question. Noah McNeely: Exactly. Steven Julian: I’m slightly annoyed. Noah McNeely: It’s very individual based. Steven Julian: This is a relational thing for you, right? Steven Julian: This is a relational business, even for you and this. Noah McNeely: I’ll put you this way. Noah McNeely: I’m at a point in my career, I’ve done this long enough, I don’t usually have to work with people I dislike. Noah McNeely: Now, I will do my best to help anyone. Noah McNeely: Even if I dislike you, I will try to point you in a good direction, sometimes to someone I don’t like, but also. Noah McNeely: They don’t know that. Noah McNeely: Yeah, they don’t know that. Noah McNeely: No, but either can be good. Noah McNeely: I think it’s better for me to answer this from the standpoint of what’s the worst type of relationship. Steven Julian: Oh, there we go. Noah McNeely: That’s where someone comes in and they’ve never developed a product before. Noah McNeely: They don’t know anything about it, but they saw something on TV. Noah McNeely: So now they’re an expert or they stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Noah McNeely: So now they’re an expert and they come in and they’re like, this is how you’re going to do it. Noah McNeely: This is how you’re going to do it. Noah McNeely: And I’m like, well, why are you here? Noah McNeely: How am I supposed to help you? Noah McNeely: You know everything already. Noah McNeely: Even though everything you just told me is completely wrong. Noah McNeely: I know you’ve read a book about it that some idiot wrote who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but that’s not how you do it. Noah McNeely: That’s not how the real world works. Noah McNeely: So those are not good relationships. Noah McNeely: Those usually end quickly. Noah McNeely: The other side of that is people that they just cannot accept what I’m telling them. Noah McNeely: So here’s the problem you have. Noah McNeely: And if you cannot solve this problem, You don’t have a business. Noah McNeely: Now, that’s just my opinion, but my opinion is based on a lot of experience, and some people just, they get really irritated about that, and I never hear from them again, and that’s probably for the best for me. Noah McNeely: But unfortunately, they then go out and they find an engineer who’s just happy to take their money, and they’ll spend a year. Noah McNeely: Dumping thousands of dollars into making something that they can never afford to produce or. Noah McNeely: that it’s never going to sell or it’s just the wrong market. Steven Julian: I like the way you answered that question. Steven Julian: Well done. Steven Julian: I asked a difficult question. Steven Julian: Noah gave a great answer to it. Steven Julian: So let me transition from the second question you asked of what can I sell. Steven Julian: And let’s kind of circle back real quick to that first question. Steven Julian: What can I get to the market with my resources? Steven Julian: This is a… Another way of kind of talking about minimum viable products. Steven Julian: So what do you need to know from the person that you’re talking to? Steven Julian: when it comes, because that word resources, let me unpack that just a little bit more. Steven Julian: You know, what can I get to the market with my resources? Steven Julian: You kind of need to know some things. Steven Julian: How much money do you have? Steven Julian: How much time do you have? Steven Julian: Kind of break that down. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I need them to be honest with themselves and with me.

Noah McNeely: Stuff costs what it costs. Noah McNeely: You know, I can’t work for free. Noah McNeely: Most people cannot. Noah McNeely: It doesn’t do you or me any good for you to come in and wear a fancy suit, pretend like you have. Noah McNeely: all this money, and then you don’t. Noah McNeely: Because then you and I are going to talk and go, hey, this is generally what this is going to cost. Noah McNeely: And you’re going to get one or two steps into that and say, oh, I can’t afford to go any further. Noah McNeely: Well, it’s like, well, why did you waste the money on the first two steps? Noah McNeely: I told you what it was going to cost to get this far. Noah McNeely: It’s like, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Well. Noah McNeely: I can’t refund your money. Noah McNeely: All the work is done. Noah McNeely: The prototypes are built. Noah McNeely: Whatever it is, that’s done. Noah McNeely: I’m sorry you can’t take it any further, but I don’t know what you want me to do. Noah McNeely: Go out and raise some money and come back in a few years, I guess. Noah McNeely: So that’s kind of the worst scenario there. Noah McNeely: I think I do need to do my best to explain to them, and I try my very best to this where I can. Noah McNeely: This is generally what it’s going to take. Noah McNeely: Hear what they’re trying to do. Noah McNeely: I’ll lay out a scope. Noah McNeely: Okay, the first phase is to get us to a prototype. Noah McNeely: I can give. Noah McNeely: that a pretty tight number. Noah McNeely: If there’s stuff in there, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Yeah, I don’t know. Noah McNeely: Are we going to end up in this material or that material? Noah McNeely: Beyond that, I have to give an estimated range. Noah McNeely: And then I can give my best guess at what the manufacturing is going to cost. Noah McNeely: But I can’t, you know, obviously on day one, nothing’s been designed. Noah McNeely: So I don’t know exactly what that is going to cost at the back end. Noah McNeely: So I do my best to open their eyes to what the costs are going to be. Noah McNeely: And also a little bit, you know, you’re going to have to have money for marketing. Noah McNeely: If you’re going to do a patent, I’ll send them to Brock, who you may know from other shows. Noah McNeely: All that’s going to take money. Noah McNeely: You may have to prioritize what you want to spend your money on and how you want to spend it. Noah McNeely: And I think actually in our next episode, we have some ideas about that. Steven Julian: Ooh, fellow with a tease. Noah McNeely: A slight tease, yes. Noah McNeely: I like that. Steven Julian: Well done. Noah McNeely: I am not a radio professional. Steven Julian: You just played one on this podcast. Steven Julian: So let me just, again, push back slightly on the word resources. Steven Julian: So we are talking about money. Steven Julian: There’s no question. Steven Julian: that is the main. Noah McNeely: Not just money. Steven Julian: Well, that was my question. Steven Julian: Don’t take my question away from me. Steven Julian: You definitely are not a professional when you did that. Noah McNeely: Clearly not. Steven Julian: So apart from money, what other resources can people bring to the table that you need to know about that will help you in helping them develop their products? Steven Julian: See how I did that? Steven Julian: Was that good? Steven Julian: All right. Noah McNeely: Thank you. Noah McNeely: So you may have other resources in terms of people in your network. Noah McNeely: You know, if you come in and say, I have this great idea and it’s for, you know, baseball players and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Noah McNeely: And okay, that’s great. Noah McNeely: But you don’t tell me, oh, and by the way, my cousin plays Major League Baseball. Noah McNeely: Well, you know, that’s a resource that we could know about. Noah McNeely: that can actually change my mind about how you would market this. Noah McNeely: Oh, well, maybe you don’t need all this money for marketing because your cousin can endorse it. Noah McNeely: Well, that may change what I advise you. Noah McNeely: on. Noah McNeely: