Product Genius, the Podcast for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and Startups
Honest advice for inventors—with obscure cultural references included at no extra charge.
Episode
230
How to Shorten the Patent Process and Other Wisdom from Patent Agent Brock Kolls of Gr8BigIdeas
Can an inventor really shorten a patent process from roughly two years to around six months? Noah and Steven welcome back patent agent and entrepreneur Brock Kolls of Gr8BigIdeas to explore patent strategies that can save inventors time, money, and painful detours. They discuss provisional, utility, and design patents; why patenting should evolve alongside product development; how professional CAD can strengthen patent communication; and a legitimate age-based route that may accelerate examination when a qualifying 65+ inventor has genuinely contributed to the invention. Most importantly, Brock shares a rule every inventor should hear before writing another legal check: your patent budget should never be bigger than your project budget.
Core Topics for this episode:
- Patents
- Product Development Process
Key Takeaways Include:
Listen here:
Episode Blog
How to Shorten the Patent Process—and Build a Smarter Patent Strategy
For many inventors, patents feel like a mysterious checkpoint somewhere between “I have an idea” and “I have a business.”
That mindset can lead to an expensive mistake: treating patenting as a separate activity instead of integrating intellectual property strategy with product development.
In this episode of Product Genius, Noah McNeely and Steven Julian welcome back patent agent and entrepreneur Brock Kolls of Gr8BigIdeas for a practical conversation about patents, provisional applications, design versus utility protection, development budgets, and a little-known way certain qualifying inventors may be able to accelerate the patent examination process.
The bigger lesson is not simply how to get a patent.
It is how to make patent strategy support the product rather than consume the resources needed to actually build it.
Your Patent Budget Should Not Be Bigger Than Your Project Budget
Brock offers one of the simplest and most useful rules in the episode:
Your patent budget should never be bigger than your project budget.
Inventors sometimes spend $10,000, $20,000, or even $30,000 protecting an idea before spending enough money to determine whether the product itself makes sense.
That can leave them with an impressive patent and very little runway left for engineering, prototypes, testing, tooling, manufacturing, packaging, and launch.
A patent can be valuable.
But it is part of a larger commercialization strategy.
If protecting the invention consumes the money required to develop the invention, something has probably gotten out of balance.
Patenting and Product Development Should Work Together
Noah describes one of his recurring frustrations: the inventor who arrives with an issued patent before meaningful product development has occurred.
Sometimes, within minutes of examining the concept, an experienced product developer can identify cheaper, simpler, or more effective ways to accomplish the same function.
That creates two problems.
First, the inventor may feel trapped into building exactly what was patented because so much money has already been invested in protecting that version.
Second, if a product developer can quickly find ways around the patent, competitors may be able to do the same thing.
Brock approaches patents as part of the development process.
As the product evolves, the patent strategy evolves with it.
That allows the intellectual property to protect a more mature understanding of the invention rather than freezing an early idea before the engineering has had a chance to improve it.
Start With the Right Kind of Protection
Brock explains two basic forms of patent protection relevant to many physical products.
A design patent protects how something looks.
A utility patent protects how something works.
Depending on the invention, both may be valuable.
Early-stage inventors may also begin with a provisional patent application.
A provisional application can establish a filing date and allow the inventor to use “patent pending” while the product continues developing.
Because the product may still change significantly during early engineering, the flexibility and lower cost of a provisional can fit naturally into the development cycle.
The key is not simply filing something.
The key is choosing an intellectual-property path that matches where the product actually is.
Use the Provisional Year Wisely
A provisional patent application generally gives the inventor a one-year window before the next filing decision.
That year should not be treated as a waiting period.
It is development time.
The product can be engineered.
Prototypes can be built.
Features can be refined.
Manufacturing approaches can be explored.
Market assumptions can be tested.
By the time the product design becomes substantially more settled, the inventor should have a much clearer understanding of what is actually worth protecting.
That makes the patent process and the product-development process complementary instead of competing activities.
Good CAD Can Improve Patent Communication
One advantage of coordinating patent work with professional product development is the quality of the visual information available for the patent application.
Brock points out that strong 3D CAD models make it much easier to create clear patent drawings.
That matters because patent examiners need to understand the invention.
A well-designed set of figures can communicate structure and function far more clearly than vague sketches, photographs, or drawings reconstructed later by someone unfamiliar with the product.
Brock describes the drawings and claims almost like bookends.
The figures visually communicate the invention.
The claims define the legal value being pursued.
The description connects the two.
Better product development can therefore contribute directly to better patent communication.
A Patent Is Part Art and Part Science
Inventors sometimes assume that filing a patent is simply a matter of completing the right forms.
Brock describes the process differently.
Patent drafting has its own specialized language and strategy.
He begins by thinking about the claims—what legal protection would actually be valuable if granted.
Then he focuses on the figures and how clearly they communicate the invention.
Between those two sits the narrative explanation of how the invention works.
This is one reason a do-it-yourself provisional application can create false confidence.
A provisional may appear successful because there is no substantive examination at that stage.
The real question is whether the application adequately supports the protection the inventor will eventually need.
Filing something is not the same as filing something strategically useful.
Can You Really Shorten a Two-Year Patent Process to Six Months?
One of the most attention-grabbing points in the episode involves accelerated examination based on an inventor’s age.
Brock explains that when an inventor who is at least 65 years old legitimately qualifies as an inventor on the application, a petition may be available to make the application special based on age.
That can move the application forward much faster than the normal queue.
Brock describes situations where a process that might otherwise take roughly two years can move in approximately six months.
But there is an important requirement:
The older person must actually contribute to the invention.
You cannot simply add Grandma to the application because she happens to be 70.
Inventorship has legal meaning.
Brock explains that the person must contribute to the invention, such as contributing to at least one claimed element.
That contribution might emerge naturally through collaboration, testing, feedback, or development discussions.
The lesson is not “put an older relative on your patent.”
The lesson is that an experienced patent strategist may know legitimate procedural options that an inventor would never discover by treating patenting as a simple paperwork exercise.
Collaboration Can Have Unexpected Benefits
Brock also points out a more personal side of collaborative inventing.
Many inventions grow out of family experiences.
Parents develop products with children.
Grandparents contribute ideas.
Spouses help test concepts.
Employees contribute improvements.
When those contributions rise to the level of inventorship, the resulting patent can become more than an intellectual-property asset.
It can memorialize the people who helped create the invention.
Even if the product never becomes a giant commercial success, the issued patent remains a permanent record of that creative collaboration.
That is a side of patents inventors do not always think about.
Work With People Who Understand Startups
Both Noah and Brock emphasize the importance of working with professionals who understand the realities of startups.
An inventor’s budget is finite.
Life happens.
Projects pause.
Designs change.
Funding takes longer than expected.
A service model that works perfectly for a large corporation may be a terrible fit for an individual entrepreneur.
Brock uses fixed-fee approaches rather than traditional hourly billing for much of his work because he wants the inventor to understand the cost and preserve resources for the rest of the journey.
Noah follows a similar philosophy in product development.
The point is not that hourly professional services are inherently wrong.
The point is that inventors should understand the incentives and economics of the people they hire.
Your Team Should Talk Early
Noah’s closing advice is especially important:
Talk with the different professionals you may need before you need all of their services.
Do not finish all the patent work and then meet the engineer.
Do not finish all the engineering and then discover what the patent professional wishes had been documented earlier.
Do not design the entire product and only then ask the manufacturer whether it can be produced economically.
You may not need to hire everyone on day one.
But early conversations can help you understand sequence, dependencies, risks, and costs.
Product development works better when engineering, intellectual property, manufacturing, marketing, and business strategy are not operating in isolated silos.
Build the Product and the Protection Together
The strongest patent strategy is not necessarily the one with the most patents.
It is the one that supports the commercial opportunity.
That might mean beginning with a provisional application while the design develops.
It might mean pursuing both utility and design protection.
It might mean delaying certain filings until the product is better defined.
It might mean recognizing that a particular patent is unlikely to create meaningful competitive value.
The strategy depends on the invention.
That is why Brock describes himself first as an entrepreneur and approaches patenting through that lens.
The goal is not simply to produce patent documents.
The goal is to help the inventor reach the marketplace with useful intellectual property and enough resources left to build the business.
The Product Genius Take
Inventors sometimes become what Noah jokingly calls “patent worshipers.”
They treat the patent as the invention’s ultimate validation.
It is not.
A patent does not prove that customers want the product.
It does not prove that the design is optimized.
It does not prove that manufacturing will be affordable.
And it certainly does not launch the business.
Patents are tools.
Powerful tools, sometimes.
But they work best when they are integrated into a broader product-development strategy.
Protect what matters.
Coordinate your patent strategy with your engineering.
Preserve enough budget to actually develop and launch the product.
Talk to the right professionals early.
And remember Brock’s wonderfully simple rule:
If your patent budget is becoming larger than your entire project budget, it is probably time to reassess.
Or, read the full transcript here:
Steven Julian
You know, this may sound like a clickbait headline, but it's really not. If you listen to this next episode, you'll learn a ton about patents from Brock Coles of Great Big Ideas, including how to get your patent process down from two years to six months. Next on Product Genius. Do you want to be a successful inventor entrepreneur struggling to get your product from idea to market? Well, you've come to the right place.
Brock Kolls
Welcome to Product Genius, the down-to-earth podcast that explores important topics about inventing and launching new products.
Steven Julian
Noah McNeely is your trusted guide. With more than 20 years of product launch experience, he's here to help you on your journey to become a product genius.
Brock Kolls
Let's get started. Here's your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian.
Steven Julian
Hey, that's my line. Yay! Welcome to another hopefully award-winning edition of Product Genius from deep inside the lair of Product Quick Start. We've got one extra person at the table. We'll get to him in just a second. Before we get to that, sitting to my right is the intrepid producer, Jody Smith. Sitting across the table is the genius who put it all together and brings other. geniuses to the table and to our show. It is Noah McNeely of Product Quick Start. Noah, welcome to your own show.
Noah McNeely
I didn't know you were talking about me with that intro.
Steven Julian
You better pay attention, man. That's what makes me slightly annoying and slightly true.
Noah McNeely
It's very good to be here.
Steven Julian
It is. And we have got a returning guest. I'm not sure. Now, this show, we haven't said this in a couple of episodes, so I'm going to reset the table, if you'll allow me.
Noah McNeely
Please.
Steven Julian
Okay. So this show started as the brainchild of one Tiffany Krumans of Shark Tank fame and now of Opu Probiotics growing fame. And she had to take a break from the show to start Opu Probiotics. And Noah had been one of the partners of the show. And Noah said, hey, I'll pick up the ball and run with it. So Tiffany is still a wonderful member of the team. And we thank her for all that she's done up to this point and certainly go check out Opu Probiotics. I think for the first time in the long history of this show and all of its iterations, we have. a returning guest.
Noah McNeely
Yeah, well, I was a returning guest.
Steven Julian
You were a returning guest, but you were a partner, right? So you were a returning guest. slash partner slash kind of secret. I was going to use a very inappropriate term, which I won't use.
Noah McNeely
You're going to have to tell me that later.
Steven Julian
I will, all fair. Definitely will do that all fair. I want to keep my job. A series regular. Oh, yes. Yes. You were not a special guest star. You were a series regular. And right now, our loyal listeners are doing the Monty Python line of saying, get on with it. So we have a returning guest to the show today.
Noah McNeely
Yeah. So Brock Coles is a good friend of mine, and he's my go-to guy for anything related to patents and trademarks. And I send him a lot of people, maybe too many. To the point where he gets annoyed with me. I hope that's not the case. Brock calls from Great Big Ideas, and that's with a number in it. GR, the number eight. Big ideas.
Brock Kolls
That's correct. All right. Yeah.
Noah McNeely
Very good.
Brock Kolls
Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me back on. Absolutely.
Steven Julian
Brock, so glad you're here. So for those people, and we certainly want them to go back after you listen to this show, go listen to Brock's other appearance. I don't think there will be much repeating, but one thing we will repeat. So great big ideas. GR, the number eight, big ideas. Tell everybody what you do.
Brock Kolls
So I introduced myself as an entrepreneur, but I've had a startup. I've been in corporate. I've done 20 plus years as a patent agent, and now I focus on helping entrepreneurs and startups patent their ideas. I don't think there's a lot of people in the tech community that do it quite the way that I do, and that's spending as much time as it takes to do it right for a very low fee and coordinating with product developers so that the product development cycle fits very nicely into the patent cycle, and that saves everybody a bunch of hassle and time.
I've already, like Noah had said, we've done many projects together now and it works very well. Whether I meet an entrepreneur who needs something done or whether Noah meets them, we can easily make an introduction. and put them onto a process that delivers their idea and delivers intellectual property to protect it at the same time.
Steven Julian
I like the way you phrased it as the way you do it is very different from how other people do it. What are some of the, can you kind of pinpoint that down to maybe two or three or 17 different things that you do and try not to do 17, but what are two or three of the biggest things that you see other people go through when they don't use you as a patent agent?
Brock Kolls
I think they get involved with a by-the-hour law. And in those cases there, lawyers are working on your projects by the hour, not by the project or not necessarily to get it done. And those costs can escalate so fast that it'll run through an entrepreneur's budget long before they get their product done and long before they get their patent done on there. I think that's... One of the big watchouts. In contrary, I try to do very low cost, fixed fee type of projects with them. The other is I look at the front end of the process. and the back end of the process is my give back.
Deliberately doing it at a very low price for provisional applications and helping them double their value when they get around to doing full applications. And it's just a give back of my time, my energy, because I've been there and I know exactly what it is. Those to me are two things that you just won't find. In the marketplace, if you're looking for somebody to come and do your patents and nothing against by the hour law, that's their model. I mean, that's how they work. But sometimes for entrepreneurs, you need somebody that can spend a lot of thinking time.
With them about what they're working on and how they might protect it and be very patient through the iterations that they go through, which is one of the attributes of working back and forth with Noah is there's lots of iterations sometimes and false starts for them to get around to a marketable concept.
Steven Julian
Yeah, Noah, I think you have something to say, so I'll get out of your way. And then I had a question for you.
Noah McNeely
Well, yeah, I'm very selective about the. people that I... I refer clients to and the people I collaborate with in this way. That's one of the reasons I really, well, the reason I really love working with Brock is like me, I'm also not a buy the hour person because startup, that's really not a good model for startups for much of anything, frankly. But you could probably make a lot more money than you do. But I think I probably could too if I did things differently. I think like me, you'd There's a labor of love involved in this.
You love working with startups and entrepreneurs and inventors, and that's reflected in how you do it. And even the things you were just talking about, your give back, I think it's reflected in that. Unlike some people we won't name, you're not just out there to squeeze as much money out of an entrepreneur as you can. You're there. I think your success, your victory dance, just like mine comes from that. Product hits the market or when that patent's issued and they have a successful business.
Brock Kolls
I think everybody has a story. When you meet these entrepreneurs, the story is very intertwined with. their life, with their jobs, with their passion and stuff. I meet a lot of moms that have entrepreneurial ideas that they want to act on or you meet somebody who's been in the workplace for many, many years and have carried these ideas with them. And then for some reason, they choose to activate. It's really special to be part of it and hear the story and learn what's going on. And along the road, it takes a while to get their product done.
Sometimes there's hiccups. Life gets in the way. They have to park a project and come back. But at the same time, from a patent perspective, the meter keeps going at the patent office. And so, you know, you have to kind of adapt to what the real life situation is with these folks. And I'm sure you do the same thing, Noah. You got to find a way to make everything fit. You got to fit the budget. You got to fit the timeline. You got to, you know. Pick up the pieces. And like you say, there's a lot of models out there that just can't accommodate that.
Noah McNeely
Either make things fit or. as quickly as possible help the client realize there's no way to make that fit. You've got to go raise money or you've got to do this or you've got to do that.
Steven Julian
No, so I was going to ask you and Brock gave a great answer as I expected him to. It's his company. It's what he does. But one of the reasons why you brought him back on this show is because in the... Past year, we've had a couple of shows where we've talked about patents and we've talked about things to avoid and red flags. And because this area is one of the areas that gets most taken advantage of or entrepreneurs get screwed over more than anything.
Noah McNeely
And I don't even know that it's intentionally they're getting screwed over. I think people are doing what they think is right.
Steven Julian
And Brock raised a great point. The per hour law, that's not wrong. That's not evil. That's not nefarious. It's just. It's getting a lawyer to do a patent rather than getting a past entrepreneur who's a patent agent to do it. So let me ask you kind of the same question from your side of. the table. Give an example or two of why Brock is the perfect type of person for you to work with for your clients. And what he does. so differently from the other things you've seen and have frustrated you to the point of coming on the air and expressing some of those frustrations.
Noah McNeely
Well, that felt like five questions.
Steven Julian
Yeah, it did. So you pick whatever one you want and answer it. I'm just being slightly annoyed.
Noah McNeely
I'll answer at least two of them. Our clients, our startup clients, they have a limited runway to get their product launched. And it doesn't do us the way we've structured ourselves. It doesn't do us all that much good to get them halfway there. It certainly doesn't do them any good. So that's one of the reasons I like Grock a lot for my clients is that attitude. The other thing I would say really relates to one of the things I've griped about a lot is I meet these people, these clients that come in and they're what I...
I kind of call them patent worshipers because they've gone out before they designed really anything outside of their head. They've. gone out and they've probably hourly law have gotten this patent issued and it's spent 10,000, whatever amount of money on this patent. They come in and five minutes into the meeting, I have identified, well, here's 12 cheaper and better ways to do exactly what you patented. And they're like, oh no, we got to make exactly what's in the patent. Well, that's fine. But you know, I found a way around it that quickly.
Anyone that wants to compete with you can too. So what Brock does is very different is he strategizes and he integrates with the product development process rather than treating patenting as its own. be all end all. Love it. I think I may have answered five questions.
Steven Julian
You did. You did fantastic. I think you answered seven.
Noah McNeely
My rambling alarm was starting to go off.
Steven Julian
Well, it was only set. The alarm was only set because of my rambling question. Brock, let's bring you in to rescue this show. So talk a little bit about and Noah kind of that was a good segue to talk about. How do you tackle, because I know every case is a little different, every entrepreneur and. every product that you work with and every patent that you've done, they all can be so unique and so different. How do you approach looking at a particular product that comes your way? Talk a little bit about multiple patent times or utility versus. just kind of talk through the strategies that you're looking for.
Is there a list of questions you're asking or just kind of lead us through that process?
Brock Kolls
Usually when Noah refers somebody to me, I'll set up a call with them. We'll start with a call. And some of the things, just what you were asking, we go through. They want to know the difference of different kinds of patents. And I tell them there's two ways to protect your idea. You can protect how it looks with a design patent. You can protect how it works with a utility patent. And very often, you can do both in there. And I then tell them that most early stage projects start out.
With what's called a provisional patent, it's very flexible. It can take early drawings, napkins, early CAD drawings. that Noah does. And because of its low cost, it gives people a patent. pending. And a filing date and it gives them a year to advance their ideas, but it doesn't break the budget. And they can be in the marketplace and they can feel comfortable talking about their idea and working with vendors. They can also feel comfortable that if the product development process changes, evolves their idea over time, they don't have sunk cost into a process.
And that ultimately when Noah reaches a final drawing stage where things change from, it's pretty frozen. And we're going to be moving forward. Hopefully that happens within that one year time period and the entrepreneur and the project are both ready to move forward with that. Now, what I do special on the back end is if somebody wants to do a utility patent with me, I can do the design one for free. And the reason why I can do that is because Noah sends me such great 3D CAD models that I can develop the pictures on my own for both applications at the same time.
Now, this saves the entrepreneur about two grand. It's a great savings and it's one example of taking a look at the unique type of. customers that we work with and figuring exactly how to get the patent system to deliver for them at the lowest possible cost, highest possible value.
Steven Julian
And so that free thing is you're like, hey, there's so little that I need to do because of what Noah's done to this point. I can get this for you with the understanding that I'm going to work with you to get to the back end to the real payoff, which is that full the full blown patent of design and all that to really protect them. So I think so. One of the things you two both share coming at this from different. You're coming from patents. Noah's coming from prototyping and creating, designing, getting it to market.
The end goal is the same of getting the person to market and, in your case, getting them protected with their patent. So talk, I guess, talk about, and let's use the word synergy or handshake. Both of those were kind of said as we were discussing this off air. Just how important is it to work with someone like Noah, someone else on the team of the entrepreneur? Again, different areas, but you're. both pulling in the same direction and helping the entrepreneur get to the end zone.
Brock Kolls
From my standpoint, having a professional help with the product design informs what the invention should be rather than an entrepreneur saying, I would like to do this. Do what and how it works and that type of thing. The CAD that Noah develops in order to build products from is such a great high quality that I think when I send applications in to the patent office visually, it's very easy for the examiner to understand what the invention is. And therefore, it's easier for him to say yes, right? Because you're communicating visually, which I think most of us digest that first in there.
And so having great drawings based... Based on a good design with very clear features on how it works makes that application much higher probability of success of coming out the other end. The alternative is I might end up with a photograph of somebody that has taken something on their table that I have to send to a drafter who then draws it in a foreign country and sends it to me. And then when I get it. back, I have to describe how it's supposed to work. It's more of a paper exercise.
Steven Julian
And you've had examples, I'm sure, where you've done that. And that's where, hey, I can't do this for free because I don't know where this is going to lead. But by the same token, you're also not going to take advantage of that person. But hey, there's a cost to what you do. And in the case of working with a professional who's created a lot more on the front end for you, and you know that entrepreneur has put some money into it, it allows you to go, well, I can do this part really, really inexpensively or even free because I think I can see how we're going to get to the end line and that's where I'm going to get paid and everybody's going to get taken care of.
Brock Kolls
It works great. Yeah. It works great that way. I think there's a lot of other strategies that can be employed too. Like for instance, I think the best value in patenting is if you can have a co-inventor that's 65 years or older because you can petition to make your. application special based on age and it'll move to the front of the line. Now this cuts a two-year process down to about a six-month process. And so a lot of times collaborating with entrepreneurs, right? They can then involve family members. You can widen the circle to develop concepts.
It helps the inventor pool. So ultimately when you get around to filing applications with different inventors, you can, you know, if you go into the process knowing what you want to get out of the process, it works very well. And I think this is another great synergy of working with the startups and working primarily with the entrepreneurs. They seem to be the most flexible in being able to collaborate with people.
Noah McNeely
And the comment that Brock just made about the 65 and older rule with the patent office, I think that's another really important thing about how Brock approaches things. I tend to describe Brock more as a patent strategist than anything else in the sense that he's not simply there to say, yeah, you can get a patent on that because you can get a patent on pretty much whatever. It's just maybe worthless, but he. strategizes how to handle, how to navigate the system. It's not just, hey, I'm going to write a patent for you.
It's going to, I'm going to write this patent. It's going to be written the right way to get through the system as, you know, as efficiently as possible. And by the way, can we include your grandmother as an inventor? And if so, we'll get there faster, you know, or whatever, all those other little nuances that can be very helpful if you know how to strategize them.
Brock Kolls
I think it helps too, because a lot of people like, you know, we talked about how these ideas are emotional and everything. And when they can collaborate with their family members and stuff, it is a way of memorializing, right? You know, that they've worked with their kids, that they've worked with their grandparents, that they've worked with that type of thing, just as an example, or they've collaborated with more employees than they would have, creating like a recognition and that type of thing. And even if the projects don't succeed, I feel like the patents kind of memorialize.
This journey that they went through together, right? That. there's an outcome that's forever that they're on there. And I think a lot of people that we've met that have that same feeling. They're working on games they played with their kids and grandpa's involved or grandma's involved or that type of thing in there.
Noah McNeely
And to list grandma or grandpa, it's not like they have to be in the shop building stuff with a welder. If you just have discussions with them and they contribute. Even the most basic elements of the idea, they can be listed as an also inventor. Correct.
Brock Kolls
Yeah. So technically the rule is they have to contribute to the invention, right? And by that- Contribute to at least one of the claims. And I tell them the same thing. Sometimes, you know, take a meeting with them, go over, ask them their opinion, use the invention with them, get their feedback incorporated into the design, that type of stuff. It seems like if your objective, right, is to go through the process and you want to definitely have that 65 plus inventor on there, it's easy to do. Particularly during the product development cycle.
Noah McNeely
By all means, if your grandmother is good at. welding, make use of that.
Steven Julian
But it's not required. Your grandmother or grandfather making BLT sandwiches for you during the three months while you were working in the basement.
Brock Kolls
Your grandmother could break it, right? And then you would know how to make it stronger.
Steven Julian
Oh, I like that.
Noah McNeely
I like that. Or maybe you have a grandmother that's very critical and she could tell you all the things that are wrong with it.
Steven Julian
And what was wrong with why you didn't finish college. But that's another show.
Brock Kolls
Grandpa's name's on there instead of grandma's.
Steven Julian
That's a different show. We're speaking with Brock Coles. He is here from Great Big Ideas. He is a patent agent. And Noah, I was going to ask you this question, and this might be for both of you. And forgive me, it is going to be a rambling question. But I think Brock is kind of pumping up working with people like you who help bring the product to a certain point before they go get a patent. One of the outgrowths of this show over the last year or two is especially the people you're bringing to the table and the people that. we're talking about.
A lot of the mistakes that when I first met you. Your tone was louder and Tiffany's tone, the frustration of what we see. Oh, it just makes me, you know, I'm not going to take it anymore.
Noah McNeely
We all still remember that one episode.
Steven Julian
Yes, exactly. Go back and find it if you can. But I'm beginning to see that really one of the quests that I think both you guys are on is enlarging the community, bringing more people to the table because you're not the only one who does this. You're the best. But you're not the only, that's my words, not yours, but you're not the only one who kind of does it this way. So, you know, have I pulled back the curtain and showed what's really going on? You're just trying to help people get in the community to avoid some of the biggest mistakes they can make, such as I have an idea, you know, and taking fuzzy pictures and here I want to patent this and, you know, spending all this unnecessary money.
Noah McNeely
That was a long and ramble question.
Steven Julian
That was. And it wasn't even really a question. I just was talking.
Noah McNeely
This happened and this happened. Discuss amongst you. Yes.
Steven Julian
I'm feeling a little verklempt. You discuss.
Noah McNeely
So I think the thing you said about bringing a community together, bringing a community together of like-minded individuals. You know, there are other groups out there that will just bring in whoever that may or may not share. That's philosophically what Brock and I and others in our group, in our kind of circle do. And that is the sense that we are in this because we enjoy working with entrepreneurs. We are entrepreneurial ourselves. We're not here to profit off of inventors. We're here to profit and, you know, maintain our businesses with inventors.
And I think that's sort of the key of the community. Consciously or subconsciously, I try to build. And that's why Brock is part of that.
Brock Kolls
I think that's the key is you have to – I introduce myself as an entrepreneur. Right. I have no pride in labels, right? But I believe that I'm working with my people. I can relate to them. I can listen to what they tell me and I can identify they're having budget troubles. I can – I. can read the stitches on a fastball.
Steven Julian
Because you've been in the batter's box facing that fastball.
Brock Kolls
And I think in collaborating with Noah, he's the same way. He can probably read the stitches on a fastball too with these entrepreneurs. And it really does influence how you approach these projects and how you accomplish what it is they're trying to do in a way that doesn't tip the ship over. A lot of them are wrestling with family budget versus project budget on there. And you got to get to the goal line. On both, right? On these things. And so I find it a lot of fun. And I like it when people invite me into their living room, so to speak, to tell me about their ideas and stuff like that.
Steven Julian
And sometimes I would imagine the initial call is always free, correct? Always.
Brock Kolls
Yeah. Every call. Yeah.
Steven Julian
So, okay. Every call is free. That's right. Because you never charge by the hour. You charge by the project. Yeah. And I would imagine because. Because Noah shared these stories from his side from creating prototyping and stuff like that. I would imagine there are people who come. to you and you go, you don't need to talk to me right now. You need to talk to Noah or you need to talk to someone else who can help them do whatever they need to do. So because it would be very unfair for me to ask the question, hey, when should people get a patent?
Because that answer is as diverse as the world we live in.
Noah McNeely
There are some patent attorneys. that the answer is when I need a boat. Right.
Steven Julian
So instead, I'll kind of ask, can you... Can you help anyone no matter where they are in their journey? What are some of the right questions they should be asking?
Brock Kolls
So the answer is yes, you can help somebody wherever they are in their journey. It usually starts just informing them about the patent process, just like we talked about earlier on the show. Different types of patents kind of set a relative expectation on cost and timing. And it's true. Sometimes they just go away for a while and they're working on other aspects of it, but then they surface on there. What's perfect for me is when they have an initial concept. done. Usually Noah will do an initial concept on there. I at least can get a CAD file, get some pictures, and I can write some text about it.
And we just try to get a provisional application done for them. Sometimes maybe they have a hurry up or they're doing something and it changes the timeline or whatnot. Realistically, that's a great starting point is when you get some initial drawings and you've gone through kind of the first rigor of what the design will be. And then, like I say, the natural timing of a provisional is it runs out in a year or you get your product cycle done, right? I mean, those are sort of the gating items. And so when you get to sort of final drawings, the project changes from being, I'll say, an inventive front end to more of a commercialization type of back end and that type of thing.
And that's the perfect time to. To jump in with other applications. And if you do the 65 thing, realistically, they all get to the goal line at the same time then. Yeah. I like that. Which is even more awesome timing.
Steven Julian
So Noah has brought up on the show more than once as in what he does with kind of helping people bring their product to market, do a prototype. There are definite people who I can do it myself. Is there anyone who says that about patents? Have you had people? I can do a patent myself. I can file a paperwork myself.
Brock Kolls
I think so. Sometimes people will try a provisional themselves and they go out, they go to the internet, they go to the website and they do the type of things. Freepatents.com. And whatnot. And a lot of times it appears successful because there's really no hurdle for provisionals as long as you pay the fee on there. But realistically, it's a very unique language and I love it. It's part art. Part science. And it needs to be feathered together very carefully, right? You want to identify what is the main feature and you want to highlight it like it's magic in the bottle, right?
In there. You want to communicate visually what your invention is because I believe that's where examiners start. You want the pictures that you draw to be able to just look at. figure one, look at figure two, and then they've got a grade in their mind. And sometimes it takes a little time to do that. And then you want to describe how you're And then you want to describe what your invention does. And it's important to kind of have those different lenses on there because they inform different things. And then, of course, the legal claims in the back are what it's all worth, right?
And so for me, I start with... The legal claims in the back, because to me, that's the value. And when I can look at those claims and I can say, aha, if we get these, these will be really good. And then I work on the pictures in the front. Those are my bookends, you know? And then once I feel like I have that, then it's just a great narrative story in between about the invention. And I'm not sure that somebody who's not informed or experienced in patents chooses that type of path.
And to me, I think that's the best, you know, like a fruitful path to go down.
Steven Julian
All right. I got a question for both of you. I. did not clear this ahead of time before the show. So Noah's nervous laughter fills the air. Jody's malicious laughter is not caught on.
Noah McNeely
Jody, be ready with the dump.
Steven Julian
Yeah, exactly. So we had story time in one of our previous recordings. that we did, and Noah's a great storyteller. And so I'm going to ask, without giving away details, without getting yourselves in trouble with your potential clients, can you guys think, can each of you think of an example that you, in working together, in finding the synergy that you go, man, this was perfect, or this could have completely gone off the rails and we were able to kind of rescue and save them. So, see, you don't need to dump that.
That's actually a good question, isn't it?
Noah McNeely
It is.
Steven Julian
But Noah likes to make notes, so he's now making mental notes.
Noah McNeely
The one that jumped to my mind instantly, and again, to keep it anonymous. A personal grooming product. we helped recently. And I think they follow the 65 and older strategy.
Brock Kolls
That's exactly it.
Steven Julian
Oh, they're getting excited.
Noah McNeely
Their products on the market has done well. They've ordered again from the factory.
Brock Kolls
That's. right. And it involved getting some of their family members on the patent as well. So, you know, team effort on there. And you're right.
Steven Julian
And Noah brought them to you.
Brock Kolls
And we got a design patent and we got a utility patent out of it, which is, you know. Home run with runners on.
Steven Julian
I love these baseball references.
Brock Kolls
That's a really good one. For me, my favorite part of the patent process is, and they still send them, thank goodness, if you're all done with the patent, about a week after they issue, they send you a physical patent. I like to go over to FedEx and mail it to the inventors. That's the last step for me in the process. And you know what? It feels like a great accomplishment. I feel like I'm part of their team. I'm on call. I'm on standby all the time. I love to hear the stories about products that get ordered or see them in the marketplace or they call in frustration and you can help use your network to connect them with somebody during the marketing process and that type of thing.
Steven Julian
Do they still use a special type? of paper? I mean, is it still kind of parchment-y?
Brock Kolls
I think I have one in my bag right here. I'm not quite sure, but it is. Yeah, good. I like that. On the day the patents come out, now they send you an electronic version, and it's kind of cool. I can write a nice little email, congrats, and off it goes and everything. There's just something special about the physicality of it. It's been a hard, laborish journey, and people like to put those up in frames or at their desks or whatnot.
Steven Julian
And listen, 15, 20 years ago, they said, oh, everybody will stop using photo albums because we're going to save all of our pictures. And now what are they talking about? Hey, take your pictures and send them to us. We'll send you some nice picture prints. And everybody's now wanting print. There is something.
Noah McNeely
Take your 35,000 pictures off your phone and we'll help you find.
Steven Julian
Well, don't get me started on Norm McDonald's. So, hey, do you want to see everything I ever did ever in my life? You want to see what my great grandfather did every day of his life? That's. what my great grandkids are going to be saying.
Noah McNeely
Here's 12 pictures of my doorknob.
Steven Julian
And then he goes, and I had my great-grandfather. There was one picture. You know, that's all they had. But the point being that I do think there's something tangible. That's right. And tangibility matters in terms of this is the fruit of my labor. This is all this work went into this, and now I've got some protection.
Noah McNeely
It's like the end of the movie where they pull the sword out of the stone or the golden monkey idol or whatever it is. You know, it's the artifact, the secret of NIM.
Brock Kolls
They've talked about phasing them out.
Noah McNeely
I don't remember how that ended.
Brock Kolls
They talked about just going digital and everything, and they haven't. It's been more than a year since they had that conversation on there. Maybe they've gotten flooded with people like us in our conversation saying that it's a special part of the process. Yeah.
Steven Julian
I'm glad they're doing it. That's fantastic. So I'm sitting here thinking, I think we're, this is terrible. That was terrible. That was terrible. Co-hosting. I apologize.
Noah McNeely
What are you talking about?
Steven Julian
I know. Jody, you're going to have to clean that up post-production. Sorry. Stop at Secret of Nim.
Noah McNeely
Just make one long bleep, so we'll think you went on some sort of horrible tirade.
Steven Julian
Okay. So, Brock, thank you so much for coming in and kind of sharing this. And Noah, I'm so glad that... Again, you bring more geniuses around the table of people who can help and people who are part of this very, very important team. So I want to ask both of you. one last question, and then we'll kind of wrap up, is just give a word of advice to all of our listeners. Obviously, my word of advice is the Slightly Knowing co-host would go, use these two guys. Build your team as you're building your business.
Product idea, but specifically around patents. And no, I'm going to let you go first because it's not your area of expertise, but you've got a great genius in the area of expertise. But if you could give one piece of advice to all the entrepreneurs and inventors listening about patents, what would it be?
Noah McNeely
I would say whether it's us or anyone you're using, touch base. You don't have. to hire them yet, but touch base with. Potential members of your team that are going to do a variety of things early on. Don't do all the patent work, then go find an engineer. Don't do all the engineering work, then go find a patent person or whatever. At least touch base with both of them or multiples, whoever it is.
Steven Julian
That's great advice.
Noah McNeely
Get everybody's advice into, okay, this is how I'm starting. Am I starting in the right way? Now, most people are going to say, no, you need to start with me. I don't always say that. I don't think Brock always says that, but it's important to get those forces early.
Steven Julian
I think that's great advice. That's fantastic advice. Brock, you got to top it.
Brock Kolls
Yeah, I would say I tell people that your patent budget should never be bigger than your project budget. And if it is, or if it's headed in that direction, then you should really, really deeply assess.
Steven Julian
That's fantastic advice.
Noah McNeely
Well, I'm going to have to talk to one of my potential clients who told me they spent $30,000 on patenting and then... The project I'm going to do for. them is maybe $5,000 worth. So I'm like, huh.
Brock Kolls
There you go. Violation.
Noah McNeely
I guess it's 35 now.
Brock Kolls
That's right. That's right. Maybe you can take my guiding principle and elevate it, right?
Steven Julian
Yeah. I've been told.
Noah McNeely
Brock says I have to charge you more. I'm sorry.
Steven Julian
I love it. Brock Cole's Great Big Ideas. For those people who want to find out more, website, contact information, how do people get ahold of you?
Brock Kolls
www.greatbigideas.com, GR8. B-I-G-I-D-E-A-S dot com.
Steven Julian
I love it. And remember, eight is the numeral eight. Don't spell out eight. So Brock, thank you so much for being here.
Brock Kolls
Great. Thanks for having me. Absolutely.
Steven Julian
Noah, you continue to build this super team of geniuses around the table that can help with all kinds of stuff. And Brock is certainly, was already part of the team. Good to bring him back in and remind everybody.
Noah McNeely
Brock's one of my favorite people. So always good to. Good to get to see him in person.
Steven Julian
Yeah, absolutely. So I want to remind everybody, if you want to work with Noah, you need to go to productquickstart.com. There's a contact us form. You can fill out information. Don't just say, I have a great idea. Give him something to go on. He will get back to you. Or you could call Brock and talk about patenting and then Brock will get you in contact with Noah.
Noah McNeely
If you say, I have a great big idea and it's spelled the way Brock's company is spelled.
Steven Julian
Then he's going to just forward that to Brock.
Noah McNeely
Yeah. Well, then I'll know you've been listening and I'll reach out to you immediately.
Steven Julian
Oh, really? Oh, big tease. First time ever. All right. So now when that happens, you got to, we got to reference this show. Yeah. The way we did the last time. As we discovered in a past recording, one thing Noah will guarantee is that the Slightly Annoying co-host will not be on that business call to talk about developing your product. If you want to learn how to podcast or get better at podcasting, you need to go to JodySmith.com. If you want an independent financial advisor, I'm not allowed to give you my website, but you can search my name, Steven Julian, and I'll help you with your investments.
So for Brock and for Noah and for Jody, this. is your Slightly Annoying co-host, Steven Julian, saying... We'll catch you next time on Product Genius.