Product Genius, the Podcast for Inventors, Entrepreneurs, and Startups

Steven Julian

Is your product developer right for you? You plucked them out of the stream of the internet and now you're wondering, man, if I just had a field guide to help me decide if this is the right person for me and my product. Well, we've got that field guide and it's coming up next on Product Genius. Do you want to be a successful inventor entrepreneur? Struggling to get your product from idea to market? Well, you've come to the right place. Welcome to Product Genius. The Down to Earth podcast that explores important topics about inventing and launching new products.

Noah McNeely is your trusted guide. With more than 20 years of product launch experience, he's here to help you on your journey to become a product genius. Let's get started. Here's your slightly annoying co-host, Steven Julian. That's my line. I'm the slightly annoying co-host. Yes, it's me, Steven Julian. With me as always, and much more importantly than me, is the star of the show, Noah McNeely from Product Genius. Welcome to your own studios, Noah.

Noah McNeely

Well, thank you. It's good to be here like I am every single day.

Steven Julian

We are broadcasting from inside of. Product Genius right off the square in downtown Lawrenceville, but you guys are listening over the beauty of the internet and we have a fantastic, wonderful episode for you today. A very unique title that Noah has given us. It is the international, it's 2023 and the new edition that Noah has created of the International Wildlife Federation's field guide for identifying designers and engineers. Say that five times fast.

Noah McNeely

No, I don't think I can say it one time slow.

Steven Julian

Yeah, well, you wrote it and so I read it. Hopefully it did very well. I think before we dig into it, obviously a little bit of tongue in cheek, but a lot of truth. Behind that tongue-in-cheek comment and title, there is no actual book. Please don't go to Amazon and search that title. Keep listening to this show because we're going to talk about it. So why did you choose the term field guide? Because I think that's kind of a very important first point that we want to talk about.

Noah McNeely

Well, when I think about a field guide, I think about, you know, we've taken trips with our kids to national parks and in all the, you know, the gift shops, they have these field guides for birds and plants and all sorts of stuff you can identify. And it's really just a list of, you know, the characteristics of the features that that particular bird or tree might have so you can know what you're looking at. So in thinking about this show, it occurred to me that engineers and product developers and designers, we also come in all different shapes and sizes and characteristics and we're a little bit different.

Steven Julian

So, and just to stay on that illustration of using a field guide, you go to a national park and you see some wildlife or you see birds. There are so many different types of birds.

Noah McNeely

Right.

Steven Julian

And not every bird. Not even all of them can fly. So the difference in those birds are so vast and so different and that field guide kind of helps you figure out. Now there's one thing between looking for a bird and there's another thing between taking my brand new invention or product that I want to try to bring to market, thing you've lovingly referred to as their baby. Many, many times on past episodes. of this and other iterations of the show. And people might think I need to talk to an engineer slash product developer or product development company.

Noah McNeely

This episode is really about how can you recognize before you hire someone who maybe isn't as experienced as I am, how can you recognize whether they're the right fit or not?

Steven Julian

And those field guides that you are referencing when you go to the parks or somewhere else. You told me that a field guide at its core is giving you tools and kind of helping you distinguish.

Noah McNeely

Right. So you can impress your nine-year-old by either saying, hey, there's a bird or, hey, there's a whatever type of bird it is.

Steven Julian

There's a Robin Redbreast or a female or male cardinal because you can tell the difference because the field guide tells you how to tell the difference. So in this field guide, the International Wildlife Federation's field guide for identifying designers and engineers, I find it interesting that designers and engineers are wildlife. That's another story for another show. But what are some of the, let's start talking about some of the differences. Let's start talking about some of the tools. that you want to point out and you want to. Point people to and say, here are some of the ways that people are different.

What's the first one you want to talk about?

Noah McNeely

Well, I think the first thing that I would look at is the type of resource that you're talking to or evaluating. And that can be everything from your neighbor's brother's nephew. He learned CAD by watching YouTube and maybe he can help you design your product. There's one end of the spectrum where that's what you find. And there are times when maybe that's the right person to work with. Then you've got some dude you met on Fiverr who's named Charlie and he's from Pakistan. Maybe he's the right guy. Maybe he's not.

Then you've got freelancers. They're professionals. Maybe you can walk into their office. Maybe you find them on the Internet. And beyond that, you've got firms. You've got small firms like Product Quick Start. And you've got big firms and you've got very big firms. So you've got people out there that work for development companies that have 400 and 500 employees. And then you've got companies like Product Quick Start. that... Are very, very small. And there's a place for every one of these. And there's a project that's right for every one of these.

But it's very rare to find any one of these. that's right for all the projects.

Steven Julian

I'm going to take what you just talked about. And we want to dig into some of those differences. But the first one, and you've set it on a tee for me as the slightly annoying co-host and comic relief, sometimes in the way I ask my questions incorrectly. So let me ask this. Does size really matter?

Noah McNeely

It absolutely matters. You can have a, maybe your engineer's too fat, maybe he's too skinny.

Steven Julian

You need to unpack that a little bit more and I'm not touching that.

Noah McNeely

Fair enough.

Steven Julian

I don't want to be canceled a few shows into the relaunch.

Noah McNeely

Right. So let's say by fat or skinny, I'm really referring to the size of the firm. So let's say you've got... Let's say you've got a pretty simple project and it's relatively straightforward and you go into one of these great big firms and they're going to have 10 people in that meeting with you. They're. going to have eight people, whatever it is, and then you're $3,000, $4,000 into the project before they've ever even started. Now, if you've got a really complicated project, maybe you're trying to develop a new type of microwave and all sorts of technology bits and pieces.

That's where you might need those eight or ten people in that meeting just to kick off the project. But if you're designing, you know, a new type of baby bottle or a new type of garden tool, maybe not.

Steven Julian

This might be a little unfair, but I'm kind of trying to lump as many of our listeners and as many people who are starting down this path. Maybe it's their first product that they're developing, their first invention, their first time, which is why they're looking for the field guide. So kind of lumping as many of them as possible together, you kind of began with some dude from Fiverr and a friend of a friend and someone who's studied CAD on YouTube. The benefit of starting there possibly is very, very low cost, but you have to weigh that with. it is someone who studied CAD through YouTube and some online. course and maybe doesn't have a lot of experience.

Should everyone start cheap?

Noah McNeely

Not necessarily. I think a lot of the inventors out there, especially ones that I work with, they can probably start cheaper than they do. to get the idea fleshed out a little bit. What I tell people is don't hire me to do things you can do on your own or maybe you have a cheap resource to do. Because you're a startup, because you're an inventor, you probably have very limited resources to get your product launched. Let's conserve those resources wherever we can. However... I've also seen people stay in that sort of cheap space way too long, and their expectations just weren't correct.

So they stay with that guy who learned all about CAD on YouTube, which is great, but that guy who learned CAD on YouTube, he doesn't know anything about plastic product design or sheet metal design or any of the things that actually are needed to get your product into the physical world.

Steven Julian

How do they discern? Can you give a couple of tips? Can you give a couple of maybe some real world examples that people can relate to? I guess the cheap end of the spectrum, the potentially, I don't want to say unprofessional, but the lack of experience side of the equation where someone can go to Fiverr or that friend of a friend, that's at least worth exploring because it's... It's relatively easy to, it doesn't utilize a lot of resources. Just don't put all your eggs in. I've got all my problems solved and I can get this all the way to market by doing it cheap.

I guess I'm just asking, you know, it's better to start exploring there and then the advice is don't stay too long.

Noah McNeely

Yeah. And I think, you know, you asked the question, how do you discern where you should start? And I think it's a bit of a balancing act. It's on the lower end, you need to determine. How capable that resource is. So get them to show you examples of stuff they've done before. If they show you a lot of really cool pictures, that's probably all they can do for you. But there's value in that. Maybe you need those really cool pictures. Maybe you need them to think it out in a 3D print.

But that's as far as you need to think about going with that particular person or company. On the other end of the spectrum, if the quote you're getting is so high that it... It destroys your entire budget just to begin working with that company. They're probably way too big or way too specialized or just way too expensive for what you need right now.

Steven Julian

Is one good tip that anyone as they start talking to anyone, whether it's you or, again, friend of a friend or a large firm, is it good to get a request for a quote before any work is done on almost anything?

Noah McNeely

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you wouldn't hire anyone in any other part of your life. To do something without getting a quote or an idea. I mean, unless you're, you know, if you're having heart surgery and it's an emergency, maybe you would. But people aren't going to come paint your house without telling you what it's going to be.

Steven Julian

Okay, so instead of just requesting for a quote, go through the quote with them, kind of understand exactly what you're signing up to get done exactly. What the scope of. work is and come into agreement on that.

Noah McNeely

And be very careful about some of the smaller resources like independent freelancers, you know, Fiverr people, Upwork people. Be very careful about hourly contracts because just like anything else, the hours can become very large very quickly without you necessarily... Having reached any milestones and I've, you know, I inherit a lot of projects from actually from both ends of the spectrum. So people eventually figure out that they're not in the right spot. Either it's too big of a company or it's, it's not a sophisticated enough resource to get them to, to the finish line.

So once they figure that out, I tend to inherit those or people like me, we inherit those projects. And sometimes. They've spent tens of thousands of dollars with that freelancer and they just have not moved the ball very far. Sometimes they've spent tens of thousands of dollars with that really big company and they also haven't moved the ball very far because every hour that company spends is a lot more expensive.

Steven Julian

Let's talk about those larger firms for just a second before we go on to the next part of the. resource and the next differences of people. So the large firms, the number one thing you've kind of said is because there's more people or because it's a larger conference room or more people are in on the... The conversation, the hourly cost can go way up because it's a larger team. What are some of the benefits? What are some of the reasons why someone would want to go to a larger firm? Is there a particular part of the project that larger firms will help with or a particular type of project?

Or you enlighten me through this field guide.

Noah McNeely

So I come from the benefit of having managed. Both types of firms. My previous experience before starting Product Quickstart was managing a relatively large firm. We had 40 employees, designers, engineers, scientists, and salespeople, and a whole bunch of overhead, which is just how you have to run a firm like that. So you asked about some benefits of a larger firm. If you have a project that does cross into a lot of disciplines, Like into science, into some heavy R&D, into maybe medical or otherwise, then you need a larger firm with all those different. points of view that can come to bear in the project.

You can do it another way too. You can certainly hire all those people individually, but then you sort of become a general contractor in that sense. You have to manage all that yourself, which can be very time consuming for an entrepreneur. Other benefits of a larger firm is if you are in a hurry, They can throw a lot of resources at something very quickly. Now, you're going to pay for that, but let's say you need to reach a trade show in a month or whatever. You're not going to get there with a small company like Product Quickstart necessarily because we're usually pretty busy.

We have a backlog. We do great work, but that takes time, and we're not able to expand to 40 people very quickly to handle that.

Steven Julian

So one of the other sections of this. International Wildlife Federation Field Guide for Identifying Designers and Engineers would be in the section of, are you working with a generalist or are you working with a specialist or something else? Talk a little bit about what you mean by that chapter of the field guide.

Noah McNeely

Yeah, so when I refer to generalists, I mean designers, engineers, product developers that work on a wide variety of products in a wide variety of industries. So they may do some medical work, they may do some... Power tool work, some basic consumer product work, some electronics work. They know about product development in a very general sense. They can help you bring all sorts of products to the market. A specialist, however, they may be a specialist in optics or they may be very, very deep in medical. And if you're working on, let's say, an implantable medical invention, you're probably going to want to work with that specialist rather than a generalist.

That's a hard word to say. Specialists tend to be more expensive. So you might want to be very careful about going to them too early. You might want to work with a generalist to flush out the idea, get to a basic prototype, get all the mechanics, all the physics worked out. Then you go to that specialist to work out all the FDA stuff or all the high science stuff that only that person can do.

Steven Julian

Large and small are all the people. who are in product development and engineering. Do they either pick one or the other? or is there even a third category that firms might kind of say?

Noah McNeely

Well, larger firms, this is another benefit to a large firm, is that they may have both generalists and specialists on staff. Okay.

Steven Julian

So there again, they can throw more resources and things.

Noah McNeely

Right. They don't necessarily have the right specialist for you. So you have to be careful about that. But, and coming from my experience running the larger firm, sometimes it is a challenge to, you know, you're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole once in a while. And yeah, you've got people that can do it, but you've also got this large machine to feed. So you're going to maybe put people into one project or another that maybe they're not the ideal specialist for. And that's just how businesses like that have to operate.

Steven Julian

So we've talked about whether size matters, and it does. You can work with a fat firm and you can work with a skinny firm. We've talked about generalists and we've talked about specialists. I think there's one other chapter, there's one other section where you kind of wanted to differentiate.

Noah McNeely

Right. So the generalists and specialists we talked about already, that's about their knowledge base, what they're good at, what they do. Do they do all types of products? Do they do medical products? More about around what kind of industry they work in. There's also this other area of generalist versus specialist, and that's in who they like to work with. So on one end of the spectrum, companies can be very much specialized in startups, entrepreneurs, smaller companies. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got very big companies or even some small companies in their entire focus. is very large clients like the Procter & Gamble's of the world.

And then you've got sort of this middle space where you've got companies that try to be everything to everybody. And I used to run a company like that and it doesn't always work out so well. And if you as a client, especially as an entrepreneur, if you try to go into the wrong type of company, you know, maybe it's a company that does only like to do big company work, you're going to. get a very high price. You're not going to get the attention you need. If you go to this everything to everybody type of firm, it might be a little better.

But still, if that big client comes in the door, you as an inventor, you're going to be kind of pushed to the back burner. On the converse of that, if you come to me, write a quick start, and you're this great big company, and you're wanting to develop this new military communications equipment, I'm not going to be the right person to help you. And other freelancers are not going to be the right person to help you. Other small companies are not going to be the right people to help you. So finding that right match of size is as important as finding that right match of capabilities and knowledge base.

Steven Julian

Is this something that is, again, thinking of our listener who's developing their product, doing their invention, is this something that can be discerned based on a company's website? Is this something they're allowed to ask, hey, do you typically, you said earlier in the interview to ask them to show examples of the work? they've done. Can you also ask them, hey, Can you give me examples of what size a company can, I would imagine they can't necessarily share their client list with you, but can they give you, can you say, hey, I'm a small startup.

This is my first product. I'm relatively new at this. Can you put me in touch with any people that you've worked with that are kind of in the same boat as I am? Is that a fair question to ask?

Noah McNeely

I think there's a flavor of that. that's fair. However, you know, speaking from my own experience, I try to be very protective of my clients. If every potential client that comes knocking on my door, if I sent them to old clients, hey, go talk to these people, they'd be getting calls all the time. Nobody wants that. So I think a more fair question would be show me things you've done that you can, that's public for smaller clients like myself. And that preferably are on the market. because if they show you a lot of stuff that never made it to the market, that should be a yellow flag or at least. a yellow flag for you.

Because even if they can show you all this great stuff they did for Coca-Cola and Procter & Gamble and stuff, but they can't show you an invention, an entrepreneur's invention that made it to the market, they may not be able to get it there. All right.

Steven Julian

I think one of the things through the string of this interview and as I'm thumbing through this field guide with you, I think one of the things that we've stated very clearly is it's okay as we approach any firm, large, small, generalist specialist, someone that works with startups or tries to be all things to all people, it's very good to ask. Very specific questions. Get some specific quotes. Get examples of things that they've done. And I think, so the last thing I would say.

Noah McNeely

Don't be shy about asking questions. Okay. This is someone that you're, or this is someone or someone's, you're going to be putting a lot of faith in. You're going to be working with for a while. So, you know, ask away. Don't shy away from any question.

Steven Julian

And the other, the last thing I was going to ask. is. Is it a good idea? I would imagine there's some value, but again, much like the friend of a friend or the person who learned CAD on the side doing a side hustle gig.

Noah McNeely

Or Charlie in Pakistan.

Steven Julian

Charlie in Pakistan.

Noah McNeely

Not his real name.

Steven Julian

Correct. That's been changed to protect the innocent or the guilty, depending on how you see it. As I'm doing this, you think of communities, you know, Pinterest, Reddit, you know, the Reddit inventors group or a LinkedIn group. There's got to be some value, but you got to be careful of how much value you derive from asking other people you meet networking or people you meet in a community of inventors. I mean, this is one of the things we've talked about on this show and in past iterations of networking and getting around other inventors, getting around other product developers.

Not everybody's out to screw you. Sometimes you can talk to some people and, hey, what's your experience been like? Not, you know, do you, does somebody work with somebody that does this? I mean, is that, is there some value in trying to get with other inventors and find out? what they did?

Noah McNeely

I think there is with two caveats. One, their project was different than your project. I mean, as an inventor, you know, by definition, what you're doing is new, hasn't been done before, right? I mean, if you're inventing something that's already out there, then you're not really inventing it. That's one caveat. So their experience will differ from yours just because of that. So you have to look at it through the lens of how your project is different. You also have to consider how well they may have managed or mismanaged their project.

So let's say... But let's say that they hired an engineer and they didn't have the right expectations or they didn't understand some of the things we've talked about on this show. They may come away with a very negative impression of that engineer just because or that product development firm just because that product development firm may have done all the right things and said, you know, here's the reasons this won't work. And this is why we're not going to work with you unless you can solve these things. I have that conversation with a lot of people.

I'm sure. some of those people don't like me much after that conversation. Any one point of information. Now, if you see a trend, a lot of people having similar comments, well, maybe that's something to consider.

Steven Julian

Well, I don't know about those people, but I still like you. And Jody, I'm getting a thumbs up from Jody. So you're okay in this room so far. So well done. So Noah, I wanted to ask you.

Noah McNeely

Focus group of two. Check.

Steven Julian

Quite a group. A Motley Crue, if you will. I wanted to ask, and this might be the last question here. I-W-F-F-G-I-D-E guide and look for the page that is for Noah McNeely and Product Quick Start. What would I find on that page? What do people need to know about your place in this field guide and what you bring to the table?

Noah McNeely

So our listing would say we are a small firm, a really small firm. I mean, there's just a few of us. Projects and industries we work in. There are a few industries we don't touch and we'll be very upfront about that, but we're not specialized in one industry. And we are also small client focused. We are not trying to be everything to everyone. We don't even advertise to larger companies. So that will be our profile.

Steven Julian

And then along with that profile, I think one of the things, one of the purposes of this show, as well as some of the things you do through your business is, If someone comes to you, either they didn't listen to this show and they come to you, or even in spite of listening to this show, those are the things you are. You have had experience in many of the other types and still know some wonderful people who do good work in a large firm, in a more specialist setting, correct?

Noah McNeely

I do, and I do also know some non-wonderful people. And if you're really rude to me, I might send you to one of them. I'm kidding. Just kidding. Yeah, so I've been doing this a long time. So I know a lot of people that do a lot of things. And if I'm not a fit for you, I have no reservation about sending you to someone else. that I think might be. And I stay plenty busy. I don't need to finagle. you into doing a project with me if it's not a fit.

Steven Julian

And I know I've asked this question of you many times over the years in many different ways. But I think if anyone listening to this point is still listening and still going, I think I need to talk to Noah. What is their first experience going to be like? So they've got their field guide. They read your page there as you gave it, and they go, I think I'm going to go try to find Noah in the wild. What's the first step? What are some of the things people can expect from you, and what are you expecting from them?

Noah McNeely

Well, I'll tell you the best way to do it, and I'll tell you a couple of bad ways to do it.

Steven Julian

Oh, okay, good. Let's start with the best way.

Noah McNeely

The best way, just go to the website. Fill out the contact us form and give me some information to go on. That's useful. I can prepare for a call with you. We'll schedule something. We'll talk. The worst way is to just find my phone number and keep calling me over and over. again because I get a million spam calls, so I'm probably not going to answer if I don't recognize your number. And then you don't leave a message. I'm like, this is a really persistent spam person. And then we never talk.

The second worst way to do it is to go to the website, go to the contact desk form and say, call me. Because I don't know what we're going to talk about. I don't know if you're trying to sell me insurance. I don't know what it's about. So give me some information. Don't tell me anything. that's, you know, going to violate a patent or top secret or anything, but there's something you can tell me. You know, you don't have to, you can tell me, hey, I'm working on a medical device.

I'm working on a garden tool. That hasn't told me anything secret, but that at least helps me understand what type of conversation we might have.

Steven Julian

And in fact, if they go to productquickstart.com, you've actually tried as... Best as you can within your power to take away at least one of those worst ways to reach out to them because there's a. very easy contact us form. that isn't just name and phone numbers.

Noah McNeely

There's two. I mean, if you do want to go the easy route, there's the basic contact us, you know, just free form answer, whatever you want to say. But we also have the self-assessment form, which actually asks some very good questions. that really helped me to prep for a call with you.

Steven Julian

Can I give our listeners a tip?

Noah McNeely

Sure.

Steven Julian

Please do the self-assessment form, guys. You know, ladies and gentlemen, please do the self-assessment form. Because if you do the just simple contact us, even if you say I got a garden tool, I got a medical piece of equipment, or we need more options in vegan food, you know, that is an inside joke for us in the room and for longtime listeners of this program. Then we, you know, that's... He'll get to you, but if you give him the more information someone can give you up front without giving away their secrets, the more motivated you will be to reach out to them and talk to them and prepared and get the most out of that call.

Noah McNeely

Right. The more you're going. to get out of the call with me, even if I'm not the right fit for you, I will be able to give you a reference much quicker in that case.

Steven Julian

Which goes back to the original part of this, that one of the biggest mistakes people make by not having a field guide or not paying attention to the field guide. They waste too much time or too much money sitting at the wrong table, sitting on the wrong phone call.

Noah McNeely

Right, exactly.

Steven Julian

And in real life field guide, that's them getting attacked by wildlife. So, you know, both outcomes are bad.

Noah McNeely

Right.

Steven Julian

One financially, one physically.

Noah McNeely

Yeah, I thought it was a squirrel, but it was a bear, so now I'm in the hospital.

Steven Julian

For four years, I lived in Bozeman, Montana, and we would go to Yellowstone, and it always amazed me. How people would get so close to the bison and to, you know, the other animals. And I'm like, you. And so whenever I see a news story, they go, I can't believe this happened. I'm like, I can't. I watched idiots walk up to them, you know, to take pictures. And don't you realize? that's a wild and this isn't a zoo. There's no fence.

Noah McNeely

They are not the costume characters at Disney World. Correct.

Steven Julian

Correct. So. You've given everybody the contact information. I don't think there's any reason to repeat it, but I do want to give you the last word just in case there was something I missed, any other mistakes that I made, any part of the field guide that we didn't go over that you want to make sure and go over.

Noah McNeely

Just one last bit of advice. There's a reason for every type of engineer and product development resource we talked about to exist. That doesn't mean they're the right. For you all the way through, like I said, I'm not the right fit for everybody all the way through. So do your homework, be open to changing who you're working with throughout the process, and you'll have a better experience. Don't get married on the first date. Take some time, and that's going to get you to your goal a lot more reliably.

Steven Julian

That is absolutely the best piece of last advice that Noah can give. I'm not going to try and top it, but I'm going to. add to it. In terms of doing your homework and not wasting your time or money, I do want to remind everybody one last time that the International Wildlife Federation's Field Guide for Identifying Designers and Engineers, lovingly known as IWFFGIDE, is not available on Amazon or any of your favorite bookstores. Don't go looking for it. It is exclusive. Audio of this episode of Product Genius with Noah McNeely.

So just like every other episode, we're available on your favorite podcasting platform. Hey, are you involved in a... An inventor community? Well, you need to be. And when you're involved in that community, tell them about this show. This show is free. It always will be free. We just want you to know more about how you can bring your product to market, make your invention a little bit better and a lot more viable and get it to market. So for our producer, Jody Smith from JodySmith.com and for Noah McNeely of Product Quick Start, this is Steven Julian, your slightly annoying co-host who's ready to end this episode by saying we'll catch you next time on Product Genius.